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Library => History & Civilization => Topic started by: laconas on April 13, 2011, 06:54:17 AM

Title: Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: laconas on April 13, 2011, 06:54:17 AM

Quote
I just want to quickly share with our audience two findings from a poll that was done this month by the Pew Research Center. When people were asked their reaction to seeing the Confederate flag displayed, 9 percent said they had a positive reaction, 30 percent a negative reaction, and 58 percent said neither. And when people were asked what do they think the main cause of the Civil War is, 48 percent said mainly about states' rights. Only 38 percent said mainly about slavery. Nine percent said both.


When the people don't agree with professional historians.

Video and comments at link.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/jan-june11/civilwar_04-12.html


ANALYSIS    AIR DATE: April 12, 2011
Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided



Transcript

JUDY WOODRUFF: Finally tonight, the Civil War 150 years later and its relevance today.

The anniversary of the war's beginning was commemorated this morning with a re-enactment of the attack on the Union base at Fort Sumter in Charleston, S.C.


Before our discussion, a bit of history. Here's an excerpt of how documentary maker Ken Burns described that moment in his PBS series "The Civil War." It was narrated by historian David McCullough.

DAVID MCCULLOUGH, narrator: The Civil War began at 4:30 a.m. on the 12th of April, 1861. Gen. Pierre Gustave Toutant Beauregard ordered his Confederate gunners to open fire on Fort Sumter, at that hour, only a dark shape out in Charleston Harbor.

Confederate Commander Beauregard was a gunner, so skilled as an artillery student at West Point, that his instructor kept him on as an assistant for another year. That instructor was Maj. Robert Anderson, Union commander inside Fort Sumter.

MAN: All the pent-up hatred of the past months and years is voiced in the thunder of these cannon, and the people seem almost beside themselves in the exaltation of a freedom they deem already won.

DAVID MCCULLOUGH: The signal to fire the first shot was given by a civilian, Edmund Ruffin, a Virginia farmer, an editor who had preached secession for 20 years.

"Of course," he said, "I was delighted to perform the service."

Thirty-four hours later, a white flag over the fort ended the bombardment. The only casualty had been a Confederate horse. It was a bloodless opening to the bloodiest war in American history.

MAN: The first gun that was fired at Fort Sumter sounded a death knell of slavery. They who fired it were the greatest practical abolitionists this nation has produced.

JUDY WOODRUFF: More now on the history and the legacy of the Civil War.

And for that, we're joined by three historians who have studied it closely. Drew Gilpin Faust is the president of Harvard University. She's written a number of books about the Civil War. Edna Medford teaches at Howard University. She focuses on the Civil War and African-American history. And Walter Edgar is a professor of history and Southern studies at the University of South Carolina.

Thank you, all three. We appreciate your being with us.

I just want to quickly share with our audience two findings from a poll that was done this month by the Pew Research Center. When people were asked their reaction to seeing the Confederate flag displayed, 9 percent said they had a positive reaction, 30 percent a negative reaction, and 58 percent said neither. And when people were asked what do they think the main cause of the Civil War is, 48 percent said mainly about states' rights. Only 38 percent said mainly about slavery. Nine percent said both.

So, to each of you, what do historians think was the cause of the Civil War? And what do you think?

Drew Faust?

DREW GILPIN FAUST, Harvard University: Well, historians are pretty united on the cause of the Civil War being slavery.


And the kind of research that historians have undertaken, especially in the years since the centennial, when there has been so much interest in this question of the role of race and slavery in the United States, that research has shown pretty decisively that, when the various states announced their plans for secession, they uniformly said that the main motivating factor was to defend slavery.

So, the kind of percentages that you quote are ones that must necessarily be disturbing to historians, who believe quite differently from the general public.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Edna Medford, any idea about why that perception is out there, given the pretty common view among historians, which I assume you share?
RELATED INFORMATION
Civil War Enthusiasts Reenact the Opening Shots of the War

EDNA MEDFORD, Howard University: Oh, absolutely. It's all about slavery.

But I think Americans, unfortunately, don't know our own history, first of all. And, at some point, of course, after the war, the nation sort of came together and decided that it was going to forget what the real cause was, because it was too painful to remember that slavery was what divided the nation.

And despite all of the books and all of the classroom discussions and all of the television programs, we still have that perception that it was about anything other than slavery. And it's unfortunate.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Yes.

Professor Walter Edgar, how do you account for that, the fact that historians are pretty unified in this view, but the public isn't?

WALTER EDGAR, University of South Carolina: Well, it's -- it's -- I would agree with Professor Medford that perhaps it's -- people don't know their own history.

And even more disturbing, in that poll, it was mostly younger responders who did the states' rights answer, as opposed to older ones. All I can do in South Carolina is go back to what the 169 men who voted to secede first from the Union said, and in their declaration of causes, that it was -- said it was protect slavery and their other domestic institutions.

And the men of 1860 and 1861 in other Southern states were pretty blunt about what they were doing.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Professor Edgar, is -- do you think there persists a different view among -- in the South, among Southerners?

WALTER EDGAR: White Southerners and black Southerners, because both black and white are Southerners. I think, among white Southerners, there is -- there's disagreement. Some would say states' rights. Some would say slavery. I have even heard the tariff mentioned.

Very few people talk as much about the election of Lincoln, although that was a defining factor in South Carolina's decision to secede.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Drew Faust, I mean, you have looked at this, and I know you have traveled around the country and spoken a lot about it. How do you see the evolution of people's understanding of the war, the Civil War?

DREW GILPIN FAUST: Evolution over time, since...

JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.

DREW GILPIN FAUST: Well, we had a critical moment in the understanding of the Civil War and the nature of engagement with the Civil War that happened around the time of the centennial, 50 years ago, when the centennial and the civil rights movement were occurring pretty much simultaneously.

And, so, even as many Americans wanted to celebrate the Civil War and engage in kind of a nostalgic connection with it, there was at the same time such a powerful social movement that was asking all Americans to interrogate themselves about, where does race play a role in American life, and what was the real legacy of the war, and have we fulfilled the promise of equality and freedom that was an essential part of the war?

So, I think that was a transformative time in the kinds of research questions that historians then took up and the way in which the public began to battle and to reinterpret the Civil War.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Edna Medford, are the questions that historians are asking themselves, yourselves, about the war, have those questions changed over time, do you think?

EDNA MEDFORD: I think we still are dealing with the same kinds of issues.

What's wonderful is that there are more of us who are in agreement than there used to be. And I think it's because documentation has become so much more available to us...

JUDY WOODRUFF: What did it used...

EDNA MEDFORD: ... because of digitization and so forth.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And what did it used to be? How would you explain...

EDNA MEDFORD: Well -- well, certainly, there was that perspective, that Southern perspective about the war: We may have lost the war, but we -- it was such a noble cause for which we fought.

And historians supported that for a number of years. And I think now, to take that position, you're sort of on the fringes of -- of historiography. Most trained historians would never come to those conclusions.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, Professor Edgar, how do you see that as somebody who, you were raised in the South and you teach in the South now?

WALTER EDGAR: Well, you know, things clearly have changed since the 1950s, when I was in school.

And I think one of the things we could look at is the observance, or really the nonobservance, of Confederate Memorial Day throughout the South. Growing up in Mobile, Ala., it was a big deal. On the day closest to Confederate Memorial in Alabama, which was April the 26th, parading through the streets were the private military school. All the politicians were there. The graves were decorated.

Now, pretty much, it's a nonevent there and most everywhere else. There's -- quote -- "an observance," but it doesn't draw people to the streets, and certainly not to the Confederate Rest.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Was there a moment when that stopped happening, or has that just faded away over time?

WALTER EDGAR: It's really been over time.

But, as Professor Faust said, the 1960s were pretty much a defining moment. And one of the interesting questions I would ask about the Pew poll when they asked about the Confederate flag, which Confederate flag are they discussing? Are they talking about the battle flag, which I suspect they are? Are they talking about the Confederate national flag, which many states, such as Alabama and Georgia, still fly at historic sites?

JUDY WOODRUFF: Very interesting question. And I don't know the answer to that.

Does -- do you? Does either one of you?

DREW GILPIN FAUST: An important part of this issue of the Confederate flag is that the Confederate battle flag, which is the flag we associate with Dixie today, and the one that is most commonly regarded as having been the Confederate flag, actually was not adopted very widely until late in the war.

It was not the flag, the official flag of the Confederate nation. And it began to play a big role in American life at the time of the civil rights movement as an expression of protest against the changes in American culture and race and its place in American life.

So, in many ways, that poll about the Confederate flag is more about, again, the 1960s than it is about the 1860s.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Another question that was asked in that poll was about how relevant people believe the war is to American political life today. And more than half said they do think it's relevant.

Professor Medford, what do you believe is relevant today to American life about this war that we fought so long ago?

EDNA MEDFORD: You know, I think we spend so much time on the war these days. And it's great that we are, because that war helps us define who we are now, who we were then and who we are now.

And I think that we have so much difficulty with it, because we all have different views of what America is. And it's such a painful history. It's very hard to look back. And so, when we do look back, we try to do so in a way that's not going to be too harmful to us psychologically, I think.

The war has tremendous relevance to us today. We have an opportunity to sort of get it right this time with the sesquicentennial. That war put us on the path to true freedom in this country. I don't think we're quite there yet, but we have the opportunity to sort of renew that commitment to true freedom at this point.

JUDY WOODRUFF: It's interesting you make the point that there's a choice about how we look back...

EDNA MEDFORD: Absolutely.

JUDY WOODRUFF: ... at the war.

What about you, Professor Edgar? What do you think is relevant to American life today about this war?

WALTER EDGAR: Well, clearly, the nation -- the Civil War was a crucial dilemma, crucial point in American history. And it changed us. And it made us one nation.

And I think the memory issue that Professor Medford talks about, it is very important, because if you look at the physical losses in -- by the white South, not just in terms of property, but also in terms of human life, that's part of the picture that is still handed down in many families today.

In a little state like South Carolina, over 30 percent of the eligible white male population died in the war. That's twice the figure that the European nations lost in World War I, where they supposedly all lost a generation.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Drew Faust, you have written about the human suffering. Your book, "This Republic of Suffering," we all know -- we know about.

How do you see the legacy?

DREW GILPIN FAUST: An important part of the legacy -- and I would just like to reinforce what others were talking about with the importance of slavery and race -- but another dimension of the legacy is the way in which the Civil War is an important moment in the history of warfare.

And it's often called the first modern and the last old-fashioned war, because it involved a level and -- of carnage and a scale that was a kind of harbinger of things to come in the 20th century. And so, we need to look at the Civil War in that way as well, and to understand the kinds of inhumanity and slaughter that were part of that war, where about 2 percent of the American population died.

That would be they equivalent of six million Americans today. Those are military deaths, not even including an estimate of civilian deaths. So, there's a kind of understanding of what human beings are able to do to one another that is an essential part of really looking back at the meaning of the Civil War.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, some important insights.

And we thank you, all three, Drew Gilpin Faust, Edna Medford, and Walter Edgar. We thank you.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 13, 2011, 12:41:31 PM
Its all nonsense, isnt it?

2 Southern states had Already banned Slavery at the time of the civil war.

Not one nation, of dozens that practiced slavery, ever warred over abolition.


It was about a Federa government Usurping states rights, not negroes plowing fields.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: jacob gold on April 13, 2011, 03:21:11 PM
Laconas - Why don't you change your name to LaBuffonas

The Jews imported the negroes to divide society  .... they have been nation wrecking for thousands of years ...... who do you think is behind the bombs in Iraq???   Is it Shiite versus Sunni? You know damn well that it is Israel

Now as to the American Civil war  ..... Jews instigated the entire thing. And save me your bullsh*t about Jewish war heroes  .... Why? Because the Zhids always sit out the wars.

It was the abolistionists (nee' kikes) from Yale that feed that propaganda. There were over 500,000 killed, and I doubt 10 were Jews. Who do you think started the Iraq war = Jews for oil.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: Zampan0 on April 13, 2011, 04:14:24 PM
U. Grant owned slaves during the civil war.  Robert E. Lee condemned slavery before the civil war.  Lincoln derided negroe's.  The use of slavery to promote a cival war was directed towards bleeding hearts.  Slavery had nothing to do with the civil war other than being a propaganda tool.  The civil war was about money.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: laconas on April 13, 2011, 04:25:22 PM
History is supposed to be an event or a series events in the past that are no longer debated, in other words, a truth. When nearly 2/3 of Americans who were given at least 12 years of the drum beat the Civil War was about slavery yet don't buy it, the oligarchs have a problem.

And we don't even have to get into the other many truths the oligarchs with their army of teachers, writers, and media are pushing that people aren't buying. When the people don't agree with the ruling class and their agents the cultural fabric falls apart. The people start to believe they're being ruled by a group of aliens who don't share their values.

Did you notice the 3 professors who have make a living writing truths and lies for the ruling class believe the solution to the disconnect is more money for more education?


Its all nonsense, isnt it?

2 Southern states had Already banned Slavery at the time of the civil war.

Not one nation, of dozens that practiced slavery, ever warred over abolition.


It was about a Federa government Usurping states rights, not negroes plowing fields.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: laconas on April 13, 2011, 04:35:08 PM
U. Grant owned slaves during the civil war.  Robert E. Lee condemned slavery before the civil war.  Lincoln derided negroe's.  The use of slavery to promote a cival war was directed towards bleeding hearts.  Slavery had nothing to do with the civil war other than being a propaganda tool.  The civil war was about money.

It still is. The dogmatic single view history of the Civil War today is used as a vehicle to promote social and political agendas to the tune of billions per year.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 13, 2011, 04:36:13 PM

When the people don't agree with professional historians.


Quotations from Otto von Bismarck, a 19th c. German politician, from an interview by C. Seim, La Vieille France, March, 1921

The division of the United States into two federations of equal force was decided long before the
Civil War by the High Financial Power of Europe. These bankers were afraid that the United States,
if they remained in one block and as one nation, would attain economical and financial
independence, which would upset their financial domination over the world.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/10163218/Bismarck-on-Jews-Bankers-and-the-American-Civil-War

oh and dont forget

http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Others/Others-Doc-Jews/+Doc-Jews-National&InternationalConspiracy&NWO/AmericanCivilWarCausedByJews-WillieMartin.htm

I regret how often history skips from civil war to the start of WWI...there was a long war going in D.C. regarding banking
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: Zampan0 on April 13, 2011, 04:40:10 PM
It still is. The dogmatic single view history of the Civil War today is used as a vehicle to promote social and political agendas to the tune of billions per year.
I'm more than a bit worried as to what's going on in Thailand right now.  I never thought the bastard's would bother Thailand.  I was very wrong.  I'm totally on the yellow (King's) side.  I've got inlaw's high up in the military there.  If asked I'll fight for them or do whatever they want me to do.  I loved the way that red shirt traitor general caught a bullet between the eyes while talking to a BBC reporter about six months ago. I thought that ended it.  The people LOVE the King, but are being duped.  I don't think the bastard's will win, but there could and probably will be alot of trouble, I am very sad to say.
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/soros-brzezinski-talking-thai.html (http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/soros-brzezinski-talking-thai.html)
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: laconas on April 13, 2011, 04:50:33 PM

Quotations from Otto von Bismarck, a 19th c. German politician, from an interview by C. Seim, La Vieille France, March, 1921

The division of the United States into two federations of equal force was decided long before the
Civil War by the High Financial Power of Europe. These bankers were afraid that the United States,
if they remained in one block and as one nation, would attain economical and financial
independence, which would upset their financial domination over the world.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/10163218/Bismarck-on-Jews-Bankers-and-the-American-Civil-War

oh and dont forget

http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Others/Others-Doc-Jews/+Doc-Jews-National&InternationalConspiracy&NWO/AmericanCivilWarCausedByJews-WillieMartin.htm

I regret how often history skips from civil war to the start of WWI...there was a long war going in D.C. regarding banking

Reading it now. Looks very informative.



Quote
Jews Caused The Civil War
Parts 7 through 12
By Willie Martin

Jew Watch - Willie Martin's Web Site

    Jews Caused The Civil War - Part 7

http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Others/Others-Doc-Jews/+Doc-Jews-National&InternationalConspiracy&NWO/AmericanCivilWarCausedByJews-WillieMartin.htm
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: jacob gold on April 13, 2011, 05:13:36 PM
(http://www.conservativefriend.org/Peace%20Page/dead_soldiers.jpg)



  Slavery had nothing to do with the civil war other than being a propaganda tool.  The civil war was about money.


The civil war was about jews gaining control of America.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: laconas on April 13, 2011, 05:21:41 PM
You might like this PBS video. Even though it has a few lies and distortions, it does mention August Belmont, Rothschild's agent in the North; of course it fails to mention Judah Benjamin, the Rothschild's agent in the South. It looks as if the Jews backed both sides when the war started, lending money in the form of bonds. But when the South lost New Orleans and Vicksburg, it appears the Rothschild's dumped the South in favor of the North.

See the 27 to 37 min mark relating to the Civil War.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/ascentofmoney/featured/the-ascent-of-money-episode-2-bonds-of-war/90/




Quotations from Otto von Bismarck, a 19th c. German politician, from an interview by C. Seim, La Vieille France, March, 1921

The division of the United States into two federations of equal force was decided long before the
Civil War by the High Financial Power of Europe. These bankers were afraid that the United States,
if they remained in one block and as one nation, would attain economical and financial
independence, which would upset their financial domination over the world.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/10163218/Bismarck-on-Jews-Bankers-and-the-American-Civil-War

oh and dont forget

http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Others/Others-Doc-Jews/+Doc-Jews-National&InternationalConspiracy&NWO/AmericanCivilWarCausedByJews-WillieMartin.htm

I regret how often history skips from civil war to the start of WWI...there was a long war going in D.C. regarding banking
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: laconas on April 13, 2011, 05:26:20 PM
A little known fact is that Siam was never colonized. Even though, the Jews never gave up trying.




I'm more than a bit worried as to what's going on in Thailand right now.  I never thought the bastard's would bother Thailand.  I was very wrong.  I'm totally on the yellow (King's) side.  I've got inlaw's high up in the military there.  If asked I'll fight for them or do whatever they want me to do.  I loved the way that red shirt traitor general caught a bullet between the eyes while talking to a BBC reporter about six months ago. I thought that ended it.  The people LOVE the King, but are being duped.  I don't think the bastard's will win, but there could and probably will be alot of trouble, I am very sad to say.
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/soros-brzezinski-talking-thai.html (http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/soros-brzezinski-talking-thai.html)
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: laconas on April 13, 2011, 05:33:05 PM
(http://www.conservativefriend.org/Peace%20Page/dead_soldiers.jpg)




The civil war was about jews gaining control of America.

As clefty said, a lot of things happened from the end of the Civil War in 1865 to the start of WWI and the Federal Reserve Act of 1913.

Here's Bismarck's theory.


Bismarck on Jews
and the American Civil War


Quotations from Otto von Bismarck, a 19th c. German politician, from an interview by
C. Seim, La Vieille France, March, 1921

The division of the United States into two federations of equal force was decided long before the
Civil War by the High Financial Power of Europe. These bankers were afraid that the United States,
if they remained in one block and as one nation, would attain economical and financial
independence, which would upset their financial domination over the world. The voice of the
Rothschilds predominated. They foresaw tremendous booty if they could substitute two feeble
democracies, indebted to the Jewish financiers, to the vigorous republic, confident and self-
providing. Therefore, they started their emissaries in order to exploit the question of slavery and thus
to dig an abyss between the two parts of the republic. Lincoln never suspected these underground
machinations. He was anti-slavery, and he was elected as such. But his character prevented him
from being the man of one party. When he had affairs in his hands, he perceived that these sinister
financiers of Europe, the Rothschilds, wished to make him the executor of their designs.

They made the rupture between the North and the South imminent! The masters of finance in
Europe made this rupture definitive in order to exploit it to the utmost. Lincoln's personality surprised
them: they thought to easily dupe the candidate woodcutter. But Lincoln read their plots and soon
understood that the South was not the worst foe, but the Jewish fi nanciers. He did not confide his
apprehensions; he watched the gestures of the Hidden Hand; he did not wish to expose publicly the
questions which disconcert the ignorant masses. He decided to eliminate the international bankers,
by establishing a system of loans, allowing the states to borrow directly from the people without
intermediary. He did not study financial questions, but his robust good sense revealed to him that
the source of any wealth resides in the work and economy of the nation. He opposed emissions
through the international financiers. He obtained from the Congress the right to borrow from the
people by selling to it the bonds of the states. The local banks were only too glad to help such a
system. And the government and the nation escaped the plots of foreign financiers. They
understood at once that the United States would escape their grip. The death of Lincoln was
resolved upon. Nothing is easier than to find a fanatic to strike.
The death of Lincoln was a disaster for Christendom. There was no man in the United States great
enough to wear his boots. And Israel went anew to garner the riches of the world. I fear that Jewish

banks with their craftiness and tortuous tricks will entirely control the exuberant riches of
America and will use it to systematically corrupt modern civilization. The Jews will not
hesitate to plunge the whole of Christendom into wars and chaos in order that "the earth
should become the inheritance of Israel.".



Comment:
Bismarck's first Reichstag speech was stamped 'anti-Semitic' (Treitschke, Deutsche Geschichte im XIX

Jahrhundert), and this continued to be his general attitude - with occasional "art of the possible" political
compromises.
In the American tragedy, the agitation for 'abolition' was spearheaded by Jewish refugees from the abortive
European revolutions of 1848. Financing for Union and Confederacy came from the same European banking
network: August Schonberg "Belmont" was the intermediary to the North, and Judah Benjamin to the
South.Lincoln greatly upset the Eastern Establishment bankers by issuing non-interest-bearing "Greenback"
currency, when the interest rates they demanded became prohibitive. His assassin was a half-Jew, according
to theBooth family biographer, Stanley Kimmel (The Mad Booths of Maryland). (Emphasis added)


http://www.scribd.com/doc/10163218/Bismarck-on-Jews-Bankers-and-the-American-Civil-War
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: wag on April 13, 2011, 05:39:37 PM
It still is. The dogmatic single view history of the Civil War today is used as a vehicle to promote social and political agendas to the tune of billions per year.

It was fought not to free the blacks, but to enslave the whites.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: Zampan0 on April 13, 2011, 05:45:45 PM
A little known fact is that Siam was never colonized. Even though, the Jews never gave up trying.
  They have never been conquered either. The Japanese recognized this fact during WWII while occupying Thailand, America's ally.  In the Phillipines, Japanese soldier's threw baby's into the air and caught them on their bayonets.  In occupied Thailand, Japanese soldier's would bow to Thai business-men on the street.  The word Thai (roughly) translates to mean, "Free".
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: laconas on April 13, 2011, 06:09:05 PM
It was fought not to free the blacks, but to enslave the whites.

I think that came later in 1913 with IRS and the FD. Still, history is a progression of interconnected events and the Civil War sowed the seeds.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: wag on April 13, 2011, 06:47:40 PM
I think that came later in 1913 with IRS and the FD. Still, history is a progression of interconnected events and the Civil War sowed the seeds.

The outcome led to a new layer of middlemen in all commerce. 
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: jacob gold on April 13, 2011, 06:57:47 PM
Jews and the Civil War is one of several new contributions to the subject of the immigrant experience during the war. And the Jews were overwhelmingly immigrants. Two-thirds of Jews in America in 1861 had been born abroad.


SO Laconas says "Jews fought like gladiators"  ..... But Jacob Gold says these 'Kikes' sat out the war in NY or as war profiteers
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: laconas on April 13, 2011, 07:11:06 PM
Jews and the Civil War is one of several new contributions to the subject of the immigrant experience during the war. And the Jews were overwhelmingly immigrants. Two-thirds of Jews in America in 1861 had been born abroad.


SO Laconas says "Jews fought like gladiators"  ..... But Jacob Gold says these 'Kikes' sat out the war in NY or as war profiteers



The Only Jewish Military
Cemetery Outside of Israel is in Richmond, Virginia


by Seymour “Sy” Brody


The Hebrew Confederate Cemetery, located in Richmond, Virginia, is the only Jewish military cemetery in the world outside of Israel. It was created by the anti-Semitism of the two Confederate military cemeteries, in Spotsylvania Court House and Fredericksburg. They refused to bury the Jewish Confederate soldiers killed in the battles of Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville and Wilderness. They didn’t want “Jewish boys” in their cemeteries.

They brought them to the Hebrew Cemetery in Richmond, Virginia. They were buried in five rows, with six bodies in a row, in a self -contained hallowed area within the larger Hebrew Cemetery. Those buried came from Mississippi, Texas, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia and Louisiana.

In 1866, The Hebrew Ladies Memorial Association was formed to take care these graves. They raised money to pay for individual gave markers for the soldiers, they sponsored memorial services and they commissioned an elaborate ornamental iron fence to surround the hallowed grave area. In the 1930s, they gave the care of this area to the Hebrew Cemetery Company.

Major William B. Meyer designed an iron railing fence that enclosed the thirty graves. This fence is considered a work of art.

(http://www.fau.edu/library/images/cemetery_gate.jpg)
Courtesy of the Hebrew Cemetery Company of Richmond The Hebrew Confederate Cemetery   

The posts of the fence are furled Confederate flags with stacked muskets, with a flat Confederate soldier's cap on top of it. The railings between the posts are crossed swords and sabers hung with wreaths of laurel. The design is emblematic of the three branches of the Confederate fighting forces: muskets for the infantry and the swords and sabers for the artillery and calvary.

In the 1930s, the tombstones were removed because of their deterioration and worn away engraving. They replaced them with a large granite stone with a bronze plaque attached with the names of all the soldiers buried. It was erected by Congregation Beth Ahabah, the caretakers of the cemetery

When Henry Gintzberger was killed in the Battle of Cold Harbor, he was misidentified and buried under the name of Gersberg. A hundred years later, local historians trying to locate his grave, found it in the Hebrew Confederate Cemetery. On October 20, 1963, a special memorial program was held at the cemetery and his birth name was restored with a plaque attached underneath the other one.

Many of the local Jewish Confederate soldiers killed are not in this military cemetery as they were buried in their family plots at the Hebrew Cemetery. One of these soldiers was Isaac Levy of Richmond, Virginia.

He was 21 years old when he was killed in the trenches near Petersburg on August 21, 1864. He was an orthodox Jew, who wrote his sister that he and other Jewish Confederate soldiers managed to have a Passover Seder with Kosher food.

T.N. Waul, who commanded a Confederate Legion said, “Jewish soldiers were brave, orderly, well–disciplined and in no respect inferior to the gallant body in which they formed a prominent part. Their behavior in the field was exemplary and no Jew was ever before a court-martial. I never heard of any Jewish soldier shirking or failing to answer any call of duty and danger.”

In the Civil War, Jews responded to the call of duty whether it was for the North or the South. The Confederate Hebrew Cemetery depicts the great sacrifices that Jews have made in defending their country.


http://www.fau.edu/library/confederate_cemetery.htm
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: OldTimes on April 13, 2011, 09:20:57 PM
U. Grant owned slaves during the civil war.  Robert E. Lee condemned slavery before the civil war.  Lincoln derided negroe's.  The use of slavery to promote a cival war was directed towards bleeding hearts.  Slavery had nothing to do with the civil war other than being a propaganda tool.  The civil war was about money.

So true.

It must be a rabbinical formula for a 'great con' to happen once in the course of the human lifetime.  About 80 years past from today's ongoing economic disintegration, we had the Great Depression leading to WW2.  70 years before that was the Civil War, instigated by jews as a divide & conquer strategy, ending with the South paying outrageous taxes to keep what little they had left to the North (actually the carpetbaggers & feds).  Why only 70 years?  perhaps the human lifespan was less then...

Before that was the masonic-instigated 'independence' from Britain accompanied by another war during the 1776-1791 timeframe.  Before that we should look to Europe for the regular con-cycles...

These long-term con-cycles work because trust is built up so the masses can be fleeced, and no one alive generally would have any experience of the last time that trust was burnt.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: thomaspain on April 13, 2011, 09:34:15 PM
   In the Phillipines, Japanese soldier's threw baby's into the air and caught them on their bayonets.

   It seems that the Japanese/Bayonet/Baby picture is not wartime phoney propaganda. The photo can be viewed at:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/258761-2/japnan (http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/258761-2/japnan)
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 14, 2011, 04:02:31 AM
So true.

It must be a rabbinical formula for a 'great con' to happen once in the course of the human lifetime.

might be that 50th year of jubilee cycle were debts are forgiven...at least some debts...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical)

every  7th 7 year cycle and debts are forgiven...some chosen debts...

and of course joseph gained prestige for the pharoah during the famine cycles of 7...

and appropriated all the currency and stole the land for the pharoah...gen 47:14-26

lot of economic policy in the ole holy book
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 14, 2011, 04:07:31 AM
The civil war was about money.

Money is the only thing the government should be about...issuing legal tender

http://www.newswithviews.com/TheComingBattle/TheComingBattleIndex.htm

an interesting read about the time immediatly after the civil war

including the war between silver and gold standard congress was engaged in until the FED

Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: wag on April 14, 2011, 04:58:09 AM
might be that 50th year of jubilee cycle were debts are forgiven...at least some debts...

every  7th 7 year cycle and debts are forgiven...some chosen debts...

When is the current cycle up?
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: laconas on April 14, 2011, 06:06:31 AM
When is the current cycle up?

Get ready for the Jubilee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3k8H_9SjoM&feature=related
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: OldTimes on April 14, 2011, 07:04:36 AM
Just like during the civil war period, many people will lose their silver.  The people who don't will be the ones that make it.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: wag on April 14, 2011, 08:13:07 AM
Get ready for the Jubilee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3k8H_9SjoM&feature=related

We can stop paying on our mortgage and cars but our children are theirs. 
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: jacob gold on April 14, 2011, 12:22:22 PM
The United States population in 1860  ----- 31,443,321

New York population in 1860 -------------------1,174,779


Jews made up 5% of America in 1860  ---- 1,500,000 but it's doubtful that 2,000 Jews served in the civil war. Jews settled in all the major trading centers along the Atlantic coast and the Mississippi.

I imagine that on the northern march on the south that zero synagogues were torched.

Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: laconas on April 14, 2011, 12:39:47 PM
The United States population in 1860  ----- 31,443,321

New York population in 1860 -------------------1,174,779


Jews made up 5% of America in 1860  ---- 1,500,000 but it's doubtful that 2,000 Jews served in the civil war. Jews settled in all the major trading centers along the Atlantic coast and the Mississippi.

I imagine that on the northern march on the south that zero synagogues were torched.


There's 30 here alone.


(http://www.fau.edu/library/images/cemetery_gate.jpg)
Major William B. Meyer designed an iron railing fence that enclosed the thirty graves. This fence is considered a work of art.

http://www.fau.edu/library/confederate_cemetery.htm
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: wag on April 14, 2011, 12:50:50 PM
I imagine that on the northern march on the south that zero synagogues were torched.

It's an interesting fact that neither Grant nor Sherman thought much of jews.  But that's not to say they were not under strict orders from Washington on what to torch (jew competition) and what to leave be.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: jacob gold on April 14, 2011, 02:10:39 PM
Laconas - You are ridiculous  You buy any Yhid fairy tale you hear at the local deli  ..... Out of the 6000 dead GIs in Iraq...How many are Jews?  Now don't include any war profiteers, outside contractors, etc.  Try a number between 1 and 10


The Hebrew Confederate Cemetery, located in Richmond, Virginia, is the only Jewish military cemetery in the world outside of Israel. It was created by the anti-Semitism of the two Confederate military cemeteries, in Spotsylvania Court House and Fredericksburg. They refused to bury the Jewish Confederate soldiers killed in the battles of Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville and Wilderness. They didn’t want “Jewish boys” in their cemeteries

Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: jacob gold on April 14, 2011, 02:21:30 PM
It's an interesting fact that neither Grant nor Sherman thought much of jews.  But that's not to say they were not under strict orders from Washington on what to torch (Jew competition) and what to leave be.


Mr Wag -- You seem to be on point. So General Sherman marched into Marietta,  you can bet there were standing orders that  no Jew plantation, farm, shop, bank, or any Jew business be touched. Jewish emissaries met with Grant and laid out just "Who was special".  And, you can also count on the fact that Jews bought up everything for pennies after the war.

In 1855 Jews were money lenders and slave traders, and during the war their f*cking kids never served. And you can bet the gentile Old South monied class never let their daughter date a Jew. My GG uncle once told me that Jews weren't even allowed to work at the famous Atlanta Cotillion Ball.

In 1855 Jews were considered gutter trash, but by 1868 my people had control of everything, and the negroes voted our way.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: bpocatch on April 14, 2011, 02:25:25 PM
A slave doesn't want to be "free."  A slave is an apprentice of a master. A slave wants to be come the next step of a craftsman.

Freeing the slaves is non concept.  People used to throw money food and livestock at masters for their children to become slaves.   The problem with the negro was they were NOT slaves.  Property.  Not even serfs.

The Civil War was over taxes.  The South did not want to pay People of We the People's taxes.  Lincoln waged war in a private agreement to preserve the Union - collect the People's taxes.  Probably to pay off the Bankster's for the 1812 war finances.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: wag on April 14, 2011, 05:56:35 PM
In 1855 Jews were considered gutter trash, but by 1868 my people had control of everything, and the negroes voted our way.

I lived in Kentucky a few years growing up.  They knew about jews and blacks.  There weren't any there. 
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: jacob gold on April 14, 2011, 08:25:16 PM
I lived in Kentucky a few years growing up.  They knew about jews and blacks.  There weren't any there.

In 1977 my people(the Jews) burnt down the Beverly Hills Supper Club in Kentucky  -- 170 goys died

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverly_Hills_Supper_Club_fire
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: wag on April 15, 2011, 04:54:54 AM
In 1977 my people(the Jews) burnt down the Beverly Hills Supper Club in Kentucky  -- 170 goys died

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverly_Hills_Supper_Club_fire

Dead goy float in the wake of jew money. 
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: jacob gold on April 15, 2011, 06:19:09 AM
Dead goy float in the wake of jew money.


We Jews have rules

1...... Young Tweens (nee preteens)  are fair game

2.......Old Skiksas make good waitresses

3.......Dead goys are ok as long as it doesn't come back to us .... Jack the Ripper, the Craig's list killer, Ted Bundy, Son of Sam, Dr  Shipman, are bad publicity
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: FrankDialogue on April 15, 2011, 06:45:27 AM
Civil War Causes

Certainly States Rights was a cause, Tariffs on British imports to the Confederates was another, as was slavery, although the issue here wasn't so much the North wanting the South to abolish slavery, as the expansion of slavery into the West, as that area was settled, and those territories became states.

Overlooked is the foreign agitation: The British, along with their financial overseeres, the Rothschilds, still sought to divide the United States, as they had continually tried to do, sometimes agresively and sometimes through 'back doors', since the Revolutionary War...The years before the Civil War saw the rise of Masonic-like secret societies, such as the 'Knights of the Golden Circle', with whom Albert Pike was involved, that sought to subvert the union...Thes 'KOGC' became a core of many states Confederate forces during the War...France also agitated, wishing to gain back, or gain influence over land ceded to the US from the Louisiana Purchase...Attacks were planned on the US from Mexico with French and German forces during the war, but these plans were foiled.

The Russian Czar came to the aid of Lincoln during the war, with his fleet at the time the Rothschilds & France were agitating...This is an important, but 'never taught' turning point of the war between the states.

According to Dean B. Mahin in his "One War at a Time, The International
Dimensions of the American Civil War';

"A year later [1863] Russian fleets were warmly welcomed at U.S. ports on
the Atlantic and Pacific.  In New York the Russian admiral and his officers
were feted in a series of high society parties; in Washington they were
entertained by the president, the secretary of state, and the secretary of
the navy.  There were rumours that, in the event of war between Britain and
the United States, Russia would provide naval aid to the United States.  In
fact, the czar was primarily concerned about the possibility of war between
Russian and Britain arising from the Russian suppression of a revolution in
Poland.  Russia's Atlantic fleet was normally icebound in the Baltic ports
during winter.  By sending it to America, the czar kept if available for use
against Britain."


http://www.historykb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/us-civil-war/580/russian-navy-during-us-civil-war (http://www.historykb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/us-civil-war/580/russian-navy-during-us-civil-war)

Jews & the Civil War


Note: Jews generally profited from slavery and supported the Confederacy...
http://southernpartysw.tripod.com/southernpartiesofthesouthwestssecondsite/id3.html (http://southernpartysw.tripod.com/southernpartiesofthesouthwestssecondsite/id3.html)

Europe & the Civil War


http://www.civilwarhome.com/europeandcivilwar.htm (http://www.civilwarhome.com/europeandcivilwar.htm)

KOGC

(http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/20709811/homepage/name/722646?type=sn)
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/confederate_gold.html (http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/confederate_gold.html)
http://www.angelfire.com/nb/rockman/Page40.html (http://www.angelfire.com/nb/rockman/Page40.html)

A 'LaRouchian' analysis of the Civil War: Quite interesting and factual...


http://american_almanac.tripod.com/russcwar.htm (http://american_almanac.tripod.com/russcwar.htm)
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: jewbacca on April 15, 2011, 07:26:45 AM
The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews

http://tracker.zaerc.com/torrents-details.php?id=15356
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: Spahi on April 15, 2011, 10:52:30 AM
In 1977 my people(the Jews) burnt down the Beverly Hills Supper Club in Kentucky  -- 170 goys died

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverly_Hills_Supper_Club_fire

The Cocoanut Grove fire was similar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoanut_Grove_fire
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: laconas on April 15, 2011, 01:18:13 PM
The Cocoanut Grove fire was similar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoanut_Grove_fire

A guy wrote a book about it in 1959. Holocaust in 1959 meant something else.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41oVwU-YvNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


http://www.amazon.com/Holocaust-Shocking-Story-Boston-Cocoanut/dp/B0007E0PSQ
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 15, 2011, 01:28:27 PM
The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews

Joo joo joo...such distraction from this global corporation

"....Pope Pius sought to comfort (Jefferson)Davis. (It should be noted that he was the only European prince of the day to recognize — at least in a de facto way — the Southern nation, the Confederate States of America.) Quite simply, though Catholicism was a minority religion in both parts of the country, the Catholic influence in American society was much stronger in the less populous South than in the North at the time of the war. This is because the first ancestors in this country of the majority of today’s U.S. Catholics did not arrive until after the conflict....

...For instance, could the War Between the States have ended differently if Bishop Lynch had reached Rome and been received by Ven. Pope Pius IX earlier than a couple of months before Appomattox? It is conceivable that Vatican diplomacy, given time to do its work, could have moved other European powers to recognize the C.S.A., notably France in light of what was then going on in Mexico....

...We have said that many leading Southerners had the right (catholic) religion, or were sympathetic to it, and it would be easy in a short essay to focus on them, to speak exclusively of prominent men, of heroes of the fighting like the twenty Confederate generals who were Catholic, including, very notably, Gen. James Longstreet, a convert, or of the Catholics who were members of President Davis’ cabinet. 2

2 The first Catholic to attain such rank in any American administration was in Davis’ cabinet. The first Jew, C.S.A. Secretary of State Judah P. Benjamin, was also a member.

http://catholicism.org/catholicism-south.html#note2

form the comments section of that article...

"Father Chiniquy was right. Reading this article confirms what he wrote about the Catholics’ aim for America over 100 years ago.
He said that Jefferson Davis had been given assurances before the American Civil War that Catholics all over the world would come to the aid of the South. The intent was to establish a nation (in the South) that would be under Catholic control."

yup all those catholic immigrants sure were useful...still are...but nooooo...its the JOOOS

and on slavery...

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/Church&slavery.html

1226 AD  The legitimacy of slavery is incorporated in the Corpus Iuris Canonici, promulgated by Pope Gregory IX which remained official law of the Church until 1913. Canon lawyers worked out four "just titles" for holding slaves: slaves captured in war, persons condemned to slavery for a crime; persons selling themselves into slavery, including a father selling his child; children of a mother who is a slave. 

more at

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/about/godvsgreed-3.html#African_American_slavery


"Slavery, considered as such in its essential nature, is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law.  There can be several just titles of slavery and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons (of the Catholic Church).  It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given."  [Instruction 20, June 1866]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: Spahi on April 15, 2011, 02:38:51 PM
A guy wrote a book about it in 1959. Holocaust in 1959 meant something else.

Wow I didn't even notice that book title on the page.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 15, 2011, 04:08:03 PM
Clefty,
Youre a Jew Disnfo Shillstein, putting out multiple disinfo Kosher Bullsh*t

The Bible istelf  does not condemn slavery. Colossians 3:22 even states, "Slaves, obey your human masters in everything."

The Catholic Church became one of the first groups to condemn slavery.  400 years before the Civil War.

'The condemnation of slavery is one of those nonbiblical doctrines that Catholics have developed through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit over the centuries.

+ In 1462, Pius II declared slavery to be "a great crime" (magnum scelus). Note that this was 30 years before Columbus "discovered" America.

+ In 1537, Paul III forbade the enslavement of the Indians

+ Urban VIII forbade it in 1639

+ Benedict XIV forbade it in 1741

+ Pius VII demanded of the Congress of Vienna, in 1815, the suppression of the slave trade

+ Gregory XVI condemned it in 1839

+ In the Bull of Canonization of the Jesuit Peter Claver, one of the most illustrious adversaries of slavery, Pius IX branded the "supreme villainy" (summum nefas) of the slave traders.

+ Leo XIII, in 1888, addressed a letter to the Brazilian bishops, exhorting them to banish from their country the remnants of slavery -- a letter to which the bishops responded with their most energetic efforts, and some generous slave-owners by freeing their slaves in a body, as in the first ages of the Church. '

Sicut Dudum
Pope Eugene IV Against the Enslaving of Black Natives from the Canary Islands.
On January 13, 1435, Eugene IV issued from Florence this bull. Sent to Bishop Ferdinand, located at Rubicon on the island of Lanzarote, this bull condemned the enslavement of the black natives of the newly colonized Canary Islands off the coast of Africa.
The Pope stated that after being converted to the faith or promised baptism, many of the inhabitants were taken from their homes and enslaved. The Bull is fairly short and is a good reference document.

Quote
“To our venerable brothers, peace and apostolic benediction, etcetera.

1. Not long ago, we learned from our brother Ferdinand, bishop at Rubicon and representative of the faithful who are residents of the Canary Islands, and from messengers sent by them to the Apostolic See, and from other trustworthy informers, the following facts: in the said islands—some called Lanzarote—and other nearby islands, the inhabitants, imitating the natural law alone, and not having known previously any sect of apostates or heretics, have a short time since been led into the Orthodox Catholic Faith with the aid of God’s mercy. Nevertheless, with the passage of time, it has happened that in some of the said islands, because of a lack of suitable governors and defenders to direct those who live there to a proper observance of the Faith in things spiritual and temporal, and to protect valiantly their property and goods, some Christians (we speak of this with sorrow), with fictitious reasoning and seizing and opportunity, have approached said islands by ship, and with armed forces taken captive and even carried off to lands overseas very many persons of both sexes, taking advantage of their simplicity. “
.
4. And no less do We order and command all and each of the faithful of each sex, within the space of fifteen days of the publication of these letters in the place where they live, that they restore to their earlier liberty all and each person of either sex who were once residents of said Canary Islands, and made captives since the time of their capture, and who have been made subject to slavery. These people are to be totally and perpetually free, and are to be let go without the exaction or reception of money. If this is not done when the fifteen days have passed, they incur the sentence of excommunication by the act itself, from which they cannot be absolved, except at the point of death, even by the Holy See, or by any Spanish bishop, or by the aforementioned Ferdinand, unless they have first given freedom to these captive persons and restored their goods. We will that like sentence of excommunication be incurred by one and all who attempt to capture, sell, or subject to slavery, baptized residents of the Canary Islands, or those who are freely seeking Baptism, from which excommunication cannot be absolved except as was stated above.”
The date of this Bull, 1435, is very significant. Nearly 60 years before the Europeans were to find the New World, we already had the papal condemnation of slavery as soon as this crime was discovered in one of the first of the Portuguese geographical discoveries.



Your links are more dinsinfo bull$h^t.
If this was my board, youd be banned.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: jacob gold on April 15, 2011, 04:27:18 PM
A Jew Owned Nightclub Torched For Insurance


(http://graphics.boston.com/photo_gallery/ri_fire/c1.jpg)


The Cocoanut Grove was a nightclub in Boston, Massachusetts which, on November 28, 1942, burned in what remains the deadliest nightclub fire in American history, killing 492 people and injuring hundreds more. It was also the second-worst single-building fire in American history; only the Iroquois Theater fire in Chicago in 1903 killed more (602). The tragedy shocked the nation and briefly replaced World War II news headlines. The fire led to a reform of fire codes and safety standards across the country and prompted a seminal study of grief. The club's Jewish owner, Barney Welansky, who had boasted of his ties to the Mafia and to Boston Mayor Maurice J. Tobin, was eventually found guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: thomaspain on April 15, 2011, 07:27:10 PM
and appropriated all the currency and stole the land for the pharoah...gen 47:14-26

   This "Pharaoh" they are referring to, is he one of the Semite Hyksos Pharaohs that the Jews allied themselves with? In Moses' time the Egyptians got an Egyptian Pharaoh and expelled exodused the Hyksos occupation forces and their allies.

Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 16, 2011, 05:19:31 AM
Clefty,
Youre a Jew Disnfo Shillstein, putting out multiple disinfo Kosher Bullsh*t

The Bible istelf  does not condemn slavery. Colossians 3:22 even states, "Slaves, obey your human masters in everything."

Exactly Walt,

Scripture upholds slavery and supports elitism and exclusions from others....and was used as a tool to uphold the institution of slavery for centuries...

that sooo Jooish...

Of course those in Christ are free and see the need to free others...and scripture says that too...

sadly as history reveals, that message is easily ignored...(or forgotten because joos hate Christ because of this message and seek to distract attention to it)

I point the accusing finger at the church...not scripture...for as an institution the church fosters heirarchy of all levels...its too much fun being pharisees I imagine...

In the case of slavery every religious institution is to blame even islam...but lets keep it to the church...

early converts to christianity were slaves and were attracted to the message of its freedom...

and yet the church as it made its conquests also became a slaver...from serfs to prostitution etc

and yes even anglicanism from england, the wanna be vatican and the puritans who were more popish than the pope and calvinists who predetermined blacks as condemned all had it wrong...

I dont defend protestants...especially those who attempted to replace the religious fascism of the pope with their own version of spiritual totalitarianism

ALAS, you are none of those so I must reserve my criticism to catholicism...

and on this thread, while members have been on the trail of the joo and his influence over the civil war and the south, they have overlooked the role of Rome...

You Walt have chosen to overlook it as well and merely focus on my attention to the Vatican's history on slavery...

Quote
The Catholic Church became one of the first groups to condemn slavery. 400 years before the Civil War.
that may be true in letter...but not in spirit....there was too much profit in it

 ironically and sad is the fact that  the colonies of catholic conquest paid little attention to the popes...

also ironic and sad is the pope did not have enough power to do anything about it...so the apologists insist...

and the church's white washing continues...
 
only in Christ are we free....the church's history says otherwise...

Quote
Your links are more dinsinfo bull$h^t.
If this was my board, youd be banned.
you'd ban me indeed!!

and if your religious corporate state were in control I would be burned and join others who were critical of your church...

you do a better job exemplifying your church than defending her

on the subject of racism and slavery...http://www.amazon.com/White-Over-Black-Attitudes-1550-1812/dp/0807845507
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 16, 2011, 05:28:28 AM
   This "Pharaoh" they are referring to, is he one of the Semite Hyksos Pharaohs that the Jews allied themselves with? In Moses' time the Egyptians got an Egyptian Pharaoh and expelled exodused the Hyksos occupation forces and their allies.

not sure, but Freud argued Moses was no joo...and it ruined him...

http://www.csudh.edu/dearhabermas/poemhyp07.htm

as I recall the torah was written looking backwards from babylonian captivity...

babylon and egypt offered alot of examples on strategies in conquest and rule...
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 16, 2011, 06:45:02 AM

Jew Moron, (Clefty)

There was NO Slavery in Europe after the Church Reigned.  Muslims AND Jews trafficked in Slaves, not Christians. Not one nation under Church control instituted or practiced Slavery.

For over 1000+ Years, there was NO Slavery.  No Debtors Prison.

That came later AFTER the Jews were released from their rightful ghettos.  Especially in England, Post Reformation.

And the White Wash, is that of Jew Crimes, Jew Pedophilia and Protestant Crimes, like the Genocide of the American Indians, defended by the use of errant scripture.

Youre a shameless Jew shill.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: thomaspain on April 16, 2011, 08:03:08 PM
There was NO Slavery in Europe after the Church Reigned. .

   I am not sure of the exact period you refer to as "after the Church Reigned"? Was it the period when serfdom was in flower? The serfs were definitely not slaves to be bought and sold. But they were bound to the land and were included in land sales and conquests. They did get to travel when they were part of their lord's levy of conscripts in wartime.

   There was an occasional serf who was in a manner of speaking, freed. Those rare individuals of above average intelligence were removed from the land. They were isolated from causing discontent among their fellows. Natural leaders were dangerous. They were sent to the monastery or to the priesthood.

   The Jewish divine mission of TIKKUN OLAM (World Repair) aims to restore all of Humanity to serfdom under Jewish masters. It is slowly being accomplished.



 
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 17, 2011, 08:49:05 AM
PRIOR TO THE REFORMATION THERE WAS LITTLE SLAVERY IN EUROPE. The jewish reformation succeeded in throwing the peasants off the land to form a cheap pool of labor.

Anti catholic penal laws meant white slavery became the foundation of British Israel zionism/empire, based on Talmudic slave laws calling whites cattle/chattel/GOYIM.



"It was not a reformation but a devastation, of England, which was, at the time when this event took place, the happiest Country, perhaps, that the world had ever seen;

Let us ask, then, whether reason do not reject with disdain the slander that has been heaped on the Monastic Institutions. They flourished in England for nine hundred years; they were beloved by the people; they were destroyed by violence, by the plunderer's grasp, and the murderer's knife.

Was there ever any thing, vicious in itself, or evil in its effects, held in veneration by a whole people for so long a time?
Even in our own time, we see the people of Spain rising in defence of their Monasteries; and we hear the Scotch "feelosofers" abuse them, because they do not like to see the property of those Monasteries transferred to English Jews.


From the land all the good things come.
Somebody must own the land.
Those who own it must have the distribution of its revenues. If these revenues be chiefly distributed amongst the people, from whose labour they arise, and in such a way as to afford to them a good maintenance on easy terms, the community must be happy.

If the revenues be alienated in very great part; if they be carried away to a great distance, and expended amongst those, from whose labour no part of them arise, the main body of the community must be miserable: poor houses, gaols, and barracks must arise.

Now, one of the greatest advantages attending the Monasteries was, that they, of necessity, caused the revenues of a large part of the lands of the country to be spent on the spot whence those revenues arose.

The hospitals and all the other establishments of the kind had the same tendency. There were, of the whole, great and small, not less, on an average, than fifty in each county; so that the revenues of the land diffused themselves, in great part, immediately amongst the people at large.
We all well know how the state of a parish becomes instantly changed for the worse, when a noble or other great land-owner quits the mansion in it, and leaves that mansion shut up.

Every one knows the effect which such a shutting up has upon the poor- rates of a parish. It is notorious, that the non-residence of the Clergy and of the noblemen and gentlemen is universally complained of as a source of evil to the country.
One of the arguments, and a great one it is, in favour of severe game laws, is, that the game causes noblemen and gentlemen to reside.
What, then, must have been the effect of twenty rich Monasteries in every county, expending constantly a large pan of their incomes on the spot?

The great cause of the miseries of Ireland, at this moment, is "absenteeship"; that is to say, the absence of the land-owners , who draw away the revenues of the country, and expend them in other countries.
If Ireland had still her seven or eight hundred Monastic Institutions, great and small, she would be, as she formerly was, prosperous and happy.

There would be no periodical famines and typhus fevers; no need of sun-set and sun-rise laws; no Captain Rocks; no projects for preventing the people from increasing; no schemes for getting rid of a "surplus population"; none of that poverty and degradation that threaten to make a desert of the country, or to make it the means of destroying the greatness of England herself.

The whole country was, thus, disfigured; it had the appearance of a land recently invaded by the most brutal barbarians: and this appearance, if we look well into it, it has even to this day. Nothing has ever yet come to supply the place of what was then destroyed. This is the view for us to take of the matter, it is not a mere matter of religion; but a matter of rights, liberties, real wealth, happiness and national greatness.

 If all these have been strengthened, or augmented, by the "REFORMATION," even. then we must not approve of the horrible means; but, if they have all been weakened, or lessened, by that "Reformation," what an outrageous abuse of words is it to call the event by that name!

And, if I do not prove, that this latter has been the case; if I do not prove, clear as the daylight, that, before the "Reformation," England was greater, more wealthy, more moral, and more happy, than she has ever been since; if I do not make this appear as clearly as any fact ever was made to appear, I will be content to pass, for the rest of my life, for a vain pretender.

If I look at the county of Surrey, in which I myself was born, and behold the devastation of that county, I am filled with indignation against the ruffian devastators. Surrey has very little of natural wealth in it.

A very considerable part of it is mere heath-land. Its present comparative opulence is a creature of the fictitious system of funding. Yet this county was, from one end of it to the other, ornamented and benefited by the establishments which grew out of the Catholic Church. At BERMONDSEY there was an Abbey; at St. MARY OVERY there was a Priory, and this convent founded that very St. Thomas's Hospital which now exists in Southwark. This Hospital also was seized by the ruffians, but the building was afterwards given to the City of London.

At NEWINGTON there was an Hospital, and, after its revenues were seized, the master obtained a licence to beg! At MERTON there was a Priory. Then, going across to the Sussex side, there was another Priory at REIGATE, Coming again near the Thames, and more to the West, there was a Priory at SHENE.

Still more to the West, there was an Abbey at CHERTSEY. At TANDRIGE there was a Priory. Near GUILDFORD, at SENDE, there was a Priory. And, at the lower end of the county, at WAVERLEY, in the parish of Farnham, was an Abbey. To these belonged cells and chapels at a distance from the convents themselves: so that it would have been a work of some difficulty for a man so to place himself, even in this poor heathy county, at six miles distance from a place where the door of hospitality was always open to the poor, to the aged, the orphan, the widow, and the stranger.
Can any man, now, place himself, in that whole county, within any number of miles of any such door? No; nor in any other county. All is wholly changed, and all is changed for the worse.
There is now no hospitality in England.

CROMWELL had obtained enormous wealth, from his several offices, as well as from the plunder of the church and the poor. He had got about thirty of the estates belonging to the monasteries; his house, or rather palace, was gorged with the fruits of the sacking; he had been made Earl of Essex; he had precedence of every one but the King; and he, in fact, represented the King in the Parliament, where he introduced and defended all his confiscating and murdering laws.

He had been barbarous beyond all description towards the unfortunate and unoffending monks and nuns; without such an instrument the plunder never could have been effected: but, he was no longer wanted; the ruffian had already lived too long; the very walls of the devastated convents seemed to call for public vengeance on his head.'

-William Cobbett, Protestant Author
A HISTORY OF THE PROTESTANT REFORMATION IN ENGLAND AND IRELAND
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 17, 2011, 06:08:06 PM
Jew Moron, (Clefty)

There was NO Slavery in Europe after the Church Reigned.  Muslims AND Jews trafficked in Slaves, not Christians. Not one nation under Church control instituted or practiced Slavery.

ha ha ha...slaves had it better than endentured servants and serfs in illiterate and poverty striken catholic lands...

and as for "not one nation"...ha ha ha tell that to the catholic new world ...and slavery continues in catholic countries like phillipines...

but oh sure the church's official stance is against slavery...like its against pedophilia I am sure

and stop comparing catholic with protestant...both do evil

the topic remains causes of the civil war and I merely wanted to remind of  catholic city of london financing with french jesuit (but still catholic) interests and the pope himself deeply invested into the break up of america...

and not just the JOOOOOOOOOS...ha ha ha
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: laconas on April 17, 2011, 06:17:38 PM
ha ha ha...slaves had it better than endentured servants and serfs in illiterate and poverty striken catholic lands...

and as for "not one nation"...ha ha ha tell that to the catholic new world ...and slavery continues in catholic countries like phillipines...

but oh sure the church's official stance is against slavery...like its against pedophilia I am sure

and stop comparing catholic with protestant...both do evil

the topic remains causes of the civil war and I merely wanted to remind of  catholic city of london financing with french jesuit (but still catholic) interests and the pope himself deeply invested into the break up of america...

and not just the JOOOOOOOOOS...ha ha ha

Slaves in pictures always look in better shape than indentured servant or serfs. Serfs always look like they're about to die of malnutrition.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 17, 2011, 07:41:02 PM
Slaves in pictures always look in better shape than indentured servant or serfs. Serfs always look like they're about to die of malnutrition.

it always annoys the blacks when i remind them that the car we own is better taken care of then the car we rent....

and when they joke "they be working us like slaves" i remind them we dont get free room and board.. :)
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: laconas on April 17, 2011, 08:21:47 PM
it always annoys the blacks when i remind them that the car we own is better taken care of then the car we rent....

and when they joke "they be working us like slaves" i remind them we dont get free room and board.. :)

The history of slavery is so distorted today I don't know what to believe sometimes. I know for example that slaves did buy their freedom.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: pope daniel on April 17, 2011, 08:44:21 PM
Of course slavery is legit, just look where they end up without it

(http://www.niggermania.com/tom/lickingcows/niggerslickingcowwaste.JPG)
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: laconas on April 17, 2011, 09:13:17 PM

Quote
Of course slavery is legit, just look where they end up without it

The history of slavery today is used for everything except telling the history of slavery.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 18, 2011, 05:42:06 AM
ha ha ha...slaves had it better than endentured servants and serfs in illiterate and poverty striken catholic lands...

and as for "not one nation"...ha ha ha tell that to the catholic new world ...and slavery continues in catholic countries like phillipines...

but oh sure the church's official stance is against slavery...like its against pedophilia I am sure

and stop comparing catholic with protestant...both do evil

the topic remains causes of the civil war and I merely wanted to remind of  catholic city of london financing with french jesuit (but still catholic) interests and the pope himself deeply invested into the break up of america...

and not just the JOOOOOOOOOS...ha ha ha

The Whole Board is now Dumber for having read your post...



"It was not a Reformation but a Devastation, of England, which was, at the time when this event took place, the Happiest Country, perhaps, that the world had ever seen;

Let us ask, then, whether reason do not reject with disdain the slander that has been heaped on the Monastic Institutions. They flourished in England for nine hundred years; they were beloved by the people; they were destroyed by violence, by the plunderer's grasp, and the murderer's knife.

Was there ever any thing, vicious in itself, or evil in its effects, held in veneration by a whole people for so long a time?
Even in our own time, we see the people of Spain rising in defence of their Monasteries; and we hear the Scotch "feelosofers" abuse them, because they do not like to see the property of those Monasteries transferred to English Jews.


From the land all the good things come.
Somebody must own the land.
Those who own it must have the distribution of its revenues. If these revenues be chiefly distributed amongst the people, from whose labour they arise, and in such a way as to afford to them a good maintenance on easy terms, the community must be happy.

If the revenues be alienated in very great part; if they be carried away to a great distance, and expended amongst those, from whose labour no part of them arise, the main body of the community must be miserable: poor houses, gaols, and barracks must arise.

Now, one of the greatest advantages attending the Monasteries was, that they, of necessity, caused the revenues of a large part of the lands of the country to be spent on the spot whence those revenues arose.


Every one knows the effect which such a shutting up has upon the poor- rates of a parish. It is notorious, that the non-residence of the Clergy and of the noblemen and gentlemen is universally complained of as a source of evil to the country.
One of the arguments, and a great one it is, in favour of severe game laws, is, that the game causes noblemen and gentlemen to reside.
What, then, must have been the effect of twenty rich Monasteries in every county, expending constantly a large pan of their incomes on the spot?

The great cause of the Miseries of Ireland, at this moment, is "absenteeship"; that is to say, the absence of the land-owners , who draw away the revenues of the country, and expend them in other countries.

If Ireland had still her seven or eight hundred Monastic Institutions, great and small, she would be, as she formerly was, prosperous and happy.'
-William Cobbett



There were 6 cases of pedophilia in the US Catholic Church last year, and 9 the year prior.
There are that many Israeli and US Rabbis indicted daily for such crimes..
There were also 260 cases in Protestant Sects, they molest at a rate of 40:1 compared to Catholics according to the 3 largest insurers.


The Jew cant keep his facts straight, so Clefty offers lies instead.  From Lies about pedophilia, to Lies about Slavery and how they were better off than natural born sovereign citizens and farmers.  Youre a Shamelss silly person.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: jacob gold on April 18, 2011, 11:16:52 AM
Jews are prone to pedophilia because

a ..... They are inbreed

b ..... They hvae no souls  ... they don't believe in an afterlife

You do konw einstein impregnated his 12 yr old cousin, that Polanski drugged children, and that Sigmund Freund did coke and bedded his tween (nee'preteen) daughter. Look at John Phillips (moomas and poppas) he boinked his daughter. John Voight did his daughter.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 18, 2011, 08:37:08 PM

If the revenues be alienated in very great part; if they be carried away to a great distance, and expended amongst those, from whose labour no part of them arise, the main body of the community must be miserable: poor houses, gaols, and barracks must arise.

and the coffers in Rome were filled by monies collected from the seven hills? ha

indulgences and taxes were spent where they were extracted? ha ha

st paul's and all the crusades were funded  from vatican bake sales and bingo in its basement? ha ha ha

your cobbett was blind...

Quote
There were 6 cases of pedophilia in the US Catholic Church last year, and 9 the year prior.


I said the official stance of the catholic church is against pedophilia...and you say I am lying? ha ha ha

I said protestants do evil too..and you say I am lying?...ha ha ha

just this past sunday in the paper the catholic league took out a full page ad trying to whitewash...

included was the argument that most of the boys were post pubescent therefore it was an issue of homosexuality not pedophilia...

so NOW its ok?...ha ha ha


Quote
Youre a Shamelss silly person.

and you exemplify your church better than defend her...

now what of

catholic supreme court justices overturning states and upholding slavery as did Taney in Dred Scott?

or Davis being rejected admission to the church...too obvious a catholic attacking the union?

or the pope being the only european representative to recognize the rebs?

or all the money from catholic city of london and french jesuits to invest in america being torn apart?

dumping millions of catholic immigrants and america is different and torn apart...

and the supreme court corporate statist 6 catholics and 3 joos...
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: thomaspain on April 18, 2011, 09:07:01 PM
Jews are prone to pedophilia because

   It is probably a custom they picked up in their visit to Egypt. They have a weakness for aping nobility. The royal Egyptians would supply little boy companions to their sons to deflect their interest in the little girls nearby. This cut down on bastardy. After the boys were grown their sisters were available to them, to protect the royal bloodline. It also worked to keep strangers out of the treasury. Marriages outside the family were to serve political purposes only.

   The English nobility also followed this tactic of supplying little companions to their sons. The age difference had to be great enough so that the heir could easily dominate the younger lad. Quite often this diversion of natural urges resulted in the heir preferring the alternative. This complicated their law of Primogeniture in which the eldest son became the sole heir. If he did not produce heirs all hell could break loose in disposing of the property. The Egyptians and Romans did not have this problem since they were more hot-blooded.

 
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: thomaspain on April 18, 2011, 10:25:42 PM
I said the official stance of the catholic church is against pedophilia...and you say I am lying? ha ha ha

I said protestants do evil too..and you say I am lying?...ha ha ha

just this past sunday in the paper the catholic league took out a full page ad trying to whitewash...

included was the argument that most of the boys were post pubescent therefore it was an issue of homosexuality not pedophilia...

   "the official stance of the catholic church is against pedophilia" is true. It is a civil matter rather than a religious one. In Judaism/Christianity not one of the Ten Commandments forbid pedophilia or homosexuality. They are not new activities, they existed in Moses' time, but Jehovah took no notice of them in his Commandments.

   As we advanced in Civilization we made civil laws to assist in bringing us up from our animal-like state. In the early days, after the Ice Age, tribes competed with one another for fertile land. The larger tribe was usually the more powerful. Homosexuality stunted the growth of the tribe and became antisocial and criminal. In earlier times pedophilia was a survival tactic of children to prevent their exclusion from the table. Why should scarce resources be shared with them if they were useless. When we left the hunter gatherer stage and went into farming, food was no longer as scarce. Children became more useful in the farming and caring for livestock, which gave them some value. It became the custom to care for children. Cruelty to children and animals became looked upon as uncivilized behavior. Civil laws were enacted to prevent such behavior. The laws had the same power as the Commandments.

   Today the condemnation of of pedophilia comes from the affect it has on stunting the psychological growth of the child. With boys it is the danger of: "As the twig is bent, the tree will grow". Homosexuality is not a desired state. The case of the girls is different. It is damaging when a young girl is prematurely awakened before she is ready, in our civilization, to breed. It is bad for our advancement into an even more civilized state. That is why the Jews advocate the degrading of our morals. Their aim is to return us into a subservient herdlike state. This is why we see bikinis on little girls.

 
They've got their finger on the pulse when it comes to the base human, there's no doubting it.
                                                               GovernmentMule- Freedom Portal Forum


Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 19, 2011, 03:55:37 AM
   In Judaism/Christianity not one of the Ten Commandments forbid pedophilia or homosexuality. They are not new activities, they existed in Moses' time, but Jehovah took no notice of them in his Commandments.

that may be true in a literal way but the levitical laws were pretty clear on whose nakedness we should not uncover...

and were also given by Jehovah because these acts were indeed occuring...

but some argue that these laws were abolished at the cross

so have at it... :)
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: jewbacca on April 19, 2011, 09:17:32 AM
Of course slavery is legit, just look where they end up without it

menstrual matter: dont knock it til youve tried it.

http://lucianarchy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=9099
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: jewbacca on April 19, 2011, 09:22:34 AM
Quote
and not just the JOOOOOOOOOS...ha ha ha

good thing there arent any catholic joos.

(http://min.us/jmOuzg.gif)
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: jacob gold on April 19, 2011, 10:51:58 AM

The civil war was a jewish orchestrated event
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 19, 2011, 12:38:30 PM
and the coffers in Rome were filled by monies collected from the seven hills? ha

indulgences and taxes were spent where they were extracted? ha ha
st paul's and all the crusades were funded  from vatican bake sales and bingo in its basement? ha ha ha
your cobbett was blind...
I said the official stance of the catholic church is against pedophilia...and you say I am lying? ha ha ha

I said protestants do evil too..and you say I am lying?...ha ha ha
just this past sunday in the paper the catholic league took out a full page ad trying to whitewash...
included was the argument that most of the boys were post pubescent therefore it was an issue of homosexuality not pedophilia...

so NOW its ok?...ha ha ha
and you exemplify your church better than defend her...

now what of
catholic supreme court justices overturning states and upholding slavery as did Taney in Dred Scott?
or Davis being rejected admission to the church...too obvious a catholic attacking the union?
or the pope being the only european representative to recognize the rebs?

or all the money from catholic city of london and french jesuits to invest in america being torn apart?
dumping millions of catholic immigrants and america is different and torn apart...
and the supreme court corporate statist 6 catholics and 3 joos...



Quote
just this past sunday in the paper the catholic league took out a full page ad trying to whitewash...
included was the argument that most of the boys were post pubescent therefore it was an issue of homosexuality not pedophilia...

Thats correct. 
Pre Pubescent is Pedophilia.  Post Pubescent is Homosexuality.
There is a vast difference.  Jews know all about it.  See Capturing  the Friedmans.
A Jewish run Daycare and they molested 400+ children, mostly pre pubescent Males.
Filmed it, caught by the Postmaster.


Quote
now what of
catholic supreme court justices overturning states and upholding slavery as did Taney in Dred Scott?

Taney’s decision was not wrong, so much in that it was a decision made according to the US Constitution.
The real fault, as it usually does, lies with Congress for not facing the issue. Americans need to understand that Taney had no choice; he had to up hold the US Constitution, even as repugnant as slavery was.

The left continues too re-write history to suit its agenda. But until we teach the truth we will have the same mixed responses from Catholics as well as all Americans.


Quote
indulgences and taxes were spent where they were extracted? ha ha
10% TO God is what is written. The Church implores that. And has done more to care for the sick, infirmed, elderly and needy than any organization in the world.


Quote
st paul's and all the crusades were funded  from vatican bake sales and bingo in its basement? ha ha ha
Crusades fought off Muslim Saracens and attempted to recapture Church lands.
How are wars (Protestant Wasps and Jew Wars) funded today?


Quote
your cobbett was blind...
No, just an honest, unbiased researcher and writer.



Catholic Health Care and Social Services

Catholic health and social service organizations have a long tradition of service in the United States, dating back to New Orleans in 1727 when 12 French Ursuline sisters arrived in the city and became nurses, teachers, and servants of the poor and orphans.

Catholic Charities is the BIGGEST private charity in the U.S. and the world as a whole.

The combined revenue of the Catholic Charities network from all sources, public and private, was $2.69 billion in 2000.
Nearly 90 percent of these funds were spent on programs and services, making the Catholic Charities network one of the country's most efficient charities.


The Catholic Church runs the largest network of private schools in the United States
42,271 priests / 5,252 brothers / 67,773 sisters

573 Catholic hospitals treated 84.7 million patients in 2005

6,511 elementary schools and 1,354 high schools, with over 2.5 million students enrolled

231 Catholic colleges and universities with a total of 763,757 students

The individual parish itself is a font of charity work. Priests help the local homeless. Provide shelter. Provide food. Provide education for children.

http://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=1174


in 2008 catholic charities spent about $4 Billion dollars on services to the poor and needy.

http://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/NetCommunity/Document.Doc?id=1924
What did athiest organizations do?






Shillstein,
You have thrown out over 10 separate issues that you ask me to deal with.
I will not indulge you, youre the King of disinfo and hijacking threads.
Stop doing it.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 19, 2011, 01:04:12 PM
For Jews like Clefty and other Chruch detractors, its fun to point out that the Catholic Church and her members make up the largest Charitable Institution in the world.



The Catholic Church is indeed the largest charitable organization
on the planet by far.

Go to the following Forbes article.
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2005/14/Revenue_1.html

If you go down and select all of the Catholic organizations the amount is astounding.
 Adding up just Catholic Charities, Food for the Poor, Catholic Relief Services, St. Jude's, and America's Second Harvest alone total $5,570,000,000, which is greater than #1 on the list for America.

Keep going down the list and you find Father Flanagan's homes, Catholic Medical Mission Board, Covenant House, and more.
Add the thousands of other charities, from Missionaries to the Poor, Amigos for Christ, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, to religious orders (like Missionaries of Charity) and thousands upon thousands of individual parishes across the globe who often do their work in anonymity, and you will see some of the charitable works of the Catholic Church.

In the Business Week article below, scroll down to “charities”.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/02_15/b3778004.htm


Game, set,  Mazel Tov
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 19, 2011, 04:31:11 PM
For Jews like Clefty and other Chruch detractors, its fun to point out that the Catholic Church and her members make up the largest Charitable Institution in the world.

The Catholic Church is indeed the largest charitable organization
on the planet by far.

Game, set,  Mazel Tov

nobody said the church was poor or wasnt the world's largest global corporation...JOOS wouldnt care to run it if it wasnt..is it really that fun to point out that all that wealth and power is in JOOS hands?

now back to the catholic involvement in the south

Robert E. Lee is known to have remarked that Pius was “the South’s only true friend in her time of need.”

http://www.assemblyjournal.com/2011/02/vatican-scorecard-american-civil-war-edition/

The Pope's poison pen letter caused massive Roman Catholic desertions from the Union army

http://www.reformation.org/lincoln.html

These CONfederates were very anxious to fulfill the Bull of Pope Alexander VI and annex the U.S. to Mexico. Their new king or emperor was to be Maximilian of Austria.

http://www.reformation.org/confederate-states.html

that the Church must also seek forgiveness for “concrete acts” during the strife-torn period. “On many occasions we have reasons to thank God for what was done and for the people who acted, [but] probably in other moments. . . we should ask for forgiveness and change direction,” Ricardo Blázquez, the Bishop of Bilbao, told the conference.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2903720.ece

oops my bad that's a different civil war the vatican orchestrated...the spanish civil war...

here back to the american civil war...

“The average Christian student of American History is unaware of how close Leo's [Pope Leo's] predecessor [Pope Pius IX] came to dissolving the Union [the United States of America] during the Civil War years.

The papacy's desire to convert the whole of America to Catholicism was well known by many in the nineteenth century. It is a significant fact that the first shot in the American Civil War was fired at Fort Sumter by the Roman Catholic Pierre Beauregard. And it is a significant fact that every man connected with the assassination of Abraham Lincoln was a Roman Catholic. Unfortunately, most historians today rarely, if ever, mention the fact that Rome, through the Jesuits and other secret oath-bound organizations –Knights of the Golden Circle, Order of American Knights, Son's of Liberty– advised and directed the leaders of the southern states throughout this period.

http://www.angelfire.com/la2/prophet1/vaticanpolicy1.html

but its about the jooooos...ha ha ha...
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 19, 2011, 05:06:41 PM
nobody said the church was poor or wasnt the world's largest global corporation...JOOS wouldnt care to run it if it wasnt..is it really that fun to point out that all that wealth and power is in JOOS hands?

now back to the catholic involvement in the south

Robert E. Lee is known to have remarked that Pius was “the South’s only true friend in her time of need.”

http://www.assemblyjournal.com/2011/02/vatican-scorecard-american-civil-war-edition/

The Pope's poison pen letter caused massive Roman Catholic desertions from the Union army

http://www.reformation.org/lincoln.html

These CONfederates were very anxious to fulfill the Bull of Pope Alexander VI and annex the U.S. to Mexico. Their new king or emperor was to be Maximilian of Austria.

http://www.reformation.org/confederate-states.html

that the Church must also seek forgiveness for “concrete acts” during the strife-torn period. “On many occasions we have reasons to thank God for what was done and for the people who acted, [but] probably in other moments. . . we should ask for forgiveness and change direction,” Ricardo Blázquez, the Bishop of Bilbao, told the conference.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2903720.ece

oops my bad that's a different civil war the vatican orchestrated...the spanish civil war...

here back to the american civil war...

“The average Christian student of American History is unaware of how close Leo's [Pope Leo's] predecessor [Pope Pius IX] came to dissolving the Union [the United States of America] during the Civil War years.

The papacy's desire to convert the whole of America to Catholicism was well known by many in the nineteenth century. It is a significant fact that the first shot in the American Civil War was fired at Fort Sumter by the Roman Catholic Pierre Beauregard. And it is a significant fact that every man connected with the assassination of Abraham Lincoln was a Roman Catholic. Unfortunately, most historians today rarely, if ever, mention the fact that Rome, through the Jesuits and other secret oath-bound organizations –Knights of the Golden Circle, Order of American Knights, Son's of Liberty– advised and directed the leaders of the southern states throughout this period.

http://www.angelfire.com/la2/prophet1/vaticanpolicy1.html

but its about the jooooos...ha ha ha...

It is unfortunate the South did not win the war...States rights would not have been Usurped and there would be no Federal Reserve.


The rest of your arguments are typical...Circular Jew Bullsh*t

Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: pope daniel on April 19, 2011, 11:18:32 PM
mcdonalds gives a lot of grants too. what blessing!
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 20, 2011, 03:54:00 AM
It is unfortunate the South did not win the war...States rights would not have been Usurped and there would be no Federal Reserve.


The rest of your arguments are typical...Circular Jew Bullsh*t

so you wish slavery would be upheld which fits corporatist ideals...your church's goal

and as for the federal reserve....right....no fed? ha ha ha what else would mask the vatican's tyranny?

as if the vatican has nothing to do with the establishment of the FED...ha ha ha...you are a silly man

you say yourself the JOO runs your church...rothschild et al...

you do a much better job exemplifying your corporate state not defending it...
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 20, 2011, 06:04:03 AM
so you wish slavery would be upheld which fits corporatist ideals...your church's goal

and as for the federal reserve....right....no fed? ha ha ha what else would mask the vatican's tyranny?

as if the vatican has nothing to do with the establishment of the FED...ha ha ha...you are a silly man

you say yourself the JOO runs your church...rothschild et al...

you do a much better job exemplifying your corporate state not defending it...


The Civil war was not about Abolition, we have established that after 4 pages.

If you remove your hed from your ass, you might also see that.

Not one nation in Europe, where the Church reigned, Practiced Slavery.

Jesus warned us about Jews, Not the Church or the Vatican or Muslims.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 20, 2011, 06:26:32 AM
Clefty,

Since you threw out the Pedophile word, could you comment on this police bust of the largest Pedophile Ring in History, headed by a Jew?


Global Pedophile Ring Busted, Police Say

By JOHN W. MILLER

THE HAGUE—Europol said Wednesday it broke up the largest international ring of pedophiles ever uncovered, a network that was allegedly centered on an Internet child pornography forum with 70,000 members across the globe, including in the U.S., the U.K. and Australia.

At the center was a website set up in the early 2000s and run out of the Netherlands, authorities said. The site allegedly exploited legal loopholes to protect its owners and members from prosecution.

Free-speech laws allow people to write what they want, so some websites "use house rules to keep themselves below the threshold of the law," said Rob Wainwright, the director of Europol, in an interview.

The "threshold" varies by country, Europol officials said, but this pedophile website's rules were set as strictly as possible so it was, on the face of it, illegal nowhere. The website was a forum for discussion around certain themes and prohibited "insults or threats" and "sexual descriptions," authorities said.

The challenge for law enforcement, Mr. Wainwright said, was to catch pedophiles setting up trades of illegal pictures or stories of abuse.

Law-enforcement professionals described the investigation, which began in 2007, as a significant breakthrough for international police cooperation, which has become increasingly essential to combat international criminal networks operating on the Web. Europol is the alliance of the Europe's police forces.

In 2008, Dutch police seized the server used to operate the website, and its administrator, a Dutchman named Amir Ish-Hurwitz, now 37 years old. He pleaded guilty on Tuesday in a court in Amsterdam and will be sentenced to between three and five years in prison, according to police.

Between 2008 and 2010, Europol brought in other police forces. One of the first was the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency, which joined the effort in June 2008.

Investigators at Europol, a Hague-based organization with a staff of 662 and an annual budget of €68.5 million ($95.4 million), decoded the list of IP addresses that had logged on to the website. Using an open-source program shared by authorities internationally, they ended up with a list of some 70,000 members, living all over the world.

Many of the 70,000, it turned out, were protected by free-speech laws. Authorities said they were considering filing charges against 670 of them.

The scale of the operation "broke new ground," said Peter Davies, a U.K. police chief who leads that country's Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre. "These offenders felt anonymous, but everything they did online was tracked using the digital footprint."

Investigators frequently posed as kids. "Children should be careful because they don't always know who they're talking to online—but predators also don't always know who they're talking to," said Mr. Davies.

Police have arrested 184, mostly for cases of serious sexual molestation.

The investigation has proceeded fastest in the U.K., where 121 people have been arrested. Some are teachers and bus drivers, others are students and lawyers. One is 84. Another is a woman.

"There is no typical profile," said Cesar Lorenzana, an investigator with the Guardia Civil in Spain, where 17 people have been arrested.

Some were already known to the public, including John McMurdo, an English scoutmaster found guilty of possessing child porn, and Lee Palmer, who abused two young boys. Both have been sentenced to jail terms. Police said 230 child victims had been identified during the investigation, and parents and authorities had been alerted.

It takes only a Google search to learn that there are other pedophile networks. "We know that, but this is the biggest one so far," Mr. Wainwright said. "The investigation is continuing, and there will be a lot more people arrested."
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: A-Train on April 20, 2011, 07:00:27 AM
The civil war was about jews gaining control of America.
Quote
"That the Southern people literally were put to the torture is vaguely understood, but even historians have shrunk from the unhappy task of showing us the torture chambers.......  Brutal men, inspired by personal ambition or party motives, assumed the pose of philanthropists and patriots, and thus deceived and misguided vast number of well-meaning people in the North....

"In the autumn of 1866, and through the winter and summer of 1867 strange men from the North were flocking into the black belt of the South, and mingling familiarly with the negroes, day and night.......  Left to themselves, the negroes would have turned for leadership to the native whites, who understood them best. This was the danger. Imperative, then, that they should be taught to hate -- and teachers of hate were plentiful. ... Over the plantations these agents wandered, seeking the negroes in their cabins, and halting them at their labors in the fields, and the simple-minded freedmen were easy victims of their guile...   Orators were needed as well as organizers, for open agitation was as essential as quiet management, and soon the lowest types of the abandoned whites were being sent into the South to arouse the passions of the negroes with incendiary speeches....."

Last week marked the 146th anniversary of the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. Was he really killed by vengeful Southerners?

(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A2KJkK39Aa9NPnIAp3ajzbkF/SIG=146cp956j/EXP=1303343741/**http%3a//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/The_Assassination_of_President_Lincoln_-_Currier_and_Ives_2.png)

Quote
"That [Andrew] Johnson was maligned by his enemies because he was seeking honestly to carry out the conciliatory and wise policy of Lincoln is now generally understood, but even now few realize how intensely Lincoln was hated by the Radicals at the time of his death."

Hmmm. Lincoln was "intensely hated" by the Radical Republicans, who then benefit immensely when a Southern stage actor named John Wilkes Booth decides to kill him. The film Birth of a Nation makes clear that the South knew Lincoln was their only friend of any stature. Why did Booth & Co. wait to kill him until after the war war was over? Booth never got to explain this, as he was conveniently killed -- like Lee Harvey Oswald -- before he could explain anything to anyone.

Lincoln is killed and his successor Johnson cannot stem the Radical program of plunder and degradation of the South through negro suffrage and intimidation, backed by federal bayonets. Lincoln's assassination thus is a disaster for those who supposedly carried it out, and a boon to their enemies.

Lincoln's killing has been compared with Kennedy's, but the real analogy is with Patton's mysterious death in occupied Germany in 1945. Patton, like Lincoln, proposed dignified treatment of the defeated enemy. With Patton out of the way, the rape and pillage of Germany is guaranteed.

[Quotations from "The Tragic Era: The Revolution After Lincoln," by Claude Bowers (1929)]


Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: jacob gold on April 20, 2011, 08:55:55 AM
John Wilkes Booth was a jew
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 20, 2011, 11:05:18 AM
John Wilkes Booth was a jew

Rothschild Mason Henchman..

Lincoln introduced Greenbacks,....interest free, debt currency, Rather than borrow from the  European Banks via Rothschild and Salmon Chase (who instituted the first income tax in America).




Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 20, 2011, 03:50:08 PM

Jesus warned us about Jews, Not the Church or the Vatican or Muslims.

really? ha ha ha  He's actually quite specific...

Matt 24: 24 "For false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive if possible, even the elect..."

Ironically this is just after Jesus foretells the time of the end and that Sabbath will be observed verse 20

what do false christs do? play vicar...and make changes...like from sabbath to sunday...and lots of other deceptions...

like civil wars are not about freedom or slavery...or that slavery is  just about blacks in the south...

no Joo or Muslim or Protestant I know follows one who stands in the place of christ...who seeks to enslave us to idolatry and the worship of oh yeah false christs...

Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 20, 2011, 03:56:19 PM

Clefty,

Since you threw out the Pedophile word, could you comment on this police bust of the largest Pedophile Ring in History, headed by a Jew?

But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Matt 18:6

that applies to all....catholic prostestant joo muslim hindu etc

by the way I consider abuse by deception and false teachings worse than physical harm as the body can recover but a lost soul never does...

Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 20, 2011, 04:01:05 PM
Rothschild Mason Henchman..

Lincoln introduced Greenbacks,....interest free, debt currency, Rather than borrow from the  European Banks via Rothschild and Salmon Chase (who instituted the first income tax in America).

and who protected and assisted moneyed joos in europe to arrive at such lofty financial heights...and who runs the church now?...and why does the vatican bank hide behind the mask of the federal reserve?

the church as you pointed out is the richest global corporation...it knows all about taxes

and civil wars...irish, american, spanish, yugoslavian...to name a few
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 20, 2011, 05:37:12 PM
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Matt 18:6

that applies to all....catholic prostestant joo muslim hindu etc

by the way I consider abuse by deception and false teachings worse than physical harm as the body can recover but a lost soul never does...

Agreed.
So Tell that to your Protest-ant Preachers.
 They Molest at a rate of 40:1 to Catholics according to the 3 largest Insurers.

Quote
Sexual Abuse of Minors in Protestant Churches
By Jonathan Morris
(Fox News) The mainstream media has all but ignored the recent Associated Press report that the 3 major insurance companies for Protestant Churches in America say they typically receive 260 reports each year of minors being sexually abused by Protestant clergy, staff, or other church-related relationships.'


2002, Christian Science Monitor on national survey results by Christian Ministry Resources
Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Catholic Church, most US churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant.
Penn State professor Philip Jenkins, on Pedophiles & Priests:
0.2 & 1.7 percent of Catholic priests are pedophiles.
While Protestant Clergy Ranges between 2- 3%.


And make sure to tell that to your Jewish Rabbi friends too.

And Public School employees.

Quote
Abuse in School 100 Times Worse than by Priests
April 1, 2010 (LifeSiteNews) Charol Shakeshaft, researcher of 2004 study prepared for the U.S. Dept of Education, "physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100xs the abuse by priests"
2004 study most accurate data available at this time indicates nearly 9.6% of students are targets of educator sexual misconduct
There were 6 credible cases of clerical sexual abuse in 2009 reported in the bishops annual audit- 65,000,000 members'
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 20, 2011, 05:45:31 PM
really? ha ha ha  He's actually quite specific...

Matt 24: 24 "For false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive if possible, even the elect..."

Ironically this is just after Jesus foretells the time of the end and that Sabbath will be observed verse 20

what do false christs do? play vicar...and make changes...like from sabbath to sunday...and lots of other deceptions...

like civil wars are not about freedom or slavery...or that slavery is  just about blacks in the south...

no Joo or Muslim or Protestant I know follows one who stands in the place of christ...who seeks to enslave us to idolatry and the worship of oh yeah false christs...

I think Christ meant the  Evangelical Protestants Worshipping false idol and practicing idolatry here with Bisexual war monger George Bush

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_DKalLszMZCo/Sufqq1YMxTI/AAAAAAAABEE/8JVk1V9H9kQ/s400/bushcutout.jpg)

And Rotund false prophet Shabbos-Goy Hagee
(http://www.faithnews.cc/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/john-hagee-israel-cufi.jpg)


Here we have Orthodoxy, the Unbloody Sacrifice on Calvary, 1900 year old
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GK9vk5xxaSs/RsXAyz3GcLI/AAAAAAAABZs/h7CQWKiclbo/s1600/Holy%2BTrinity%2BGerman%2BChurch%2B%282%29.jpg)
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 20, 2011, 05:49:58 PM
and who protected and assisted moneyed joos in europe to arrive at such lofty financial heights...and who runs the church now?...and why does the vatican bank hide behind the mask of the federal reserve?

the church as you pointed out is the richest global corporation...it knows all about taxes

and civil wars...irish, american, spanish, yugoslavian...to name a few


Jew Money lenders were not protected, they had their wealth confiscated.
Usury was banned.


Napoleon Looted the Vatican via Rothschild, who took it over in the 1820s.
Its run in that fashion, not the other way around..

The Church is Not the Richest Global Corporation. 
More Zio Nonsense.

Fact: The income of the Vatican is less than the individual income of several of the larger dioceses in the USA.

Fact: Vatican is not even top 100 richest country of the world.

Quote
Roman Catholics: The Vatican's Wealth
Friday, Feb. 26, 1965, TIME

Bankers' best guesses about the Vatican's wealth put it at $10 billion to $15 billion.
Of this wealth, Italian stockholdings alone run to $1.6 billion, 15% of the value of listed shares on the Italian market.
The Vatican has big investments in banking, insurance, chemicals, steel, construction, real estate. Dividends help pay for Vatican expenses and charities such as assisting 1,500,000 children and providing some measure of food and clothing to 7,000,000 needy Italians. Unlike ordinary stockholders, the Vatican pays no taxes on this income, which led the leftist Rome weekly L'Espresso last week to call it "the biggest tax evader in Italy."

In 1962, Italy placed a 15% tax on all stock dividends, which two years later was raised to a 30% maximum. A rider to the original law that would have exempted the Vatican was specifically struck down. Nevertheless, the Vatican refused to pay the taxes—which might run upwards of $15 million a year-citing the Lateran Treaty of 1929 between Pope Pius XI and Mussolini.
At that time, Italy agreed to pay the Pope $39 million in cash and $52 million in 5% government bonds as indemnity for losses suffered by the Pope when the Papal States were incorporated into Italy in 1870.
Under Pius XII, Vatican money was shrewdly invested in stocks and real estate, and the capital has multiplied manyfold. The treaty also recognized the sovereignty of the Vatican, and a 1942 law written "in the spirit of the Concordat" exempted the Vatican from paying certain taxes then existing on dividends.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,833509,00.html#ixzz1K1bwaJZ1



Quote
VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Despite the $8.9 million of extraordinary expenses related to the death of Pope John Paul II and the election of Pope Benedict XVI, the Vatican closed its 2005 budget with a surplus of more than $12 million, officials said.

Cardinal Sergio Sebastiani, president of the Prefecture for the Economic Affairs of the Holy See, presented the 2005 consolidated budget figures at a July 12 press conference.

Improved exchange rates and higher interest on Vatican investments helped give the Vatican its healthiest bottom line in eight years, the cardinal said. He said the Vatican's investment sector closed with a profit of $55 million compared to a profit of only $7.7 million in 2004.


I dare say Rothschild and The Central Bank Owners are infinitely wealthier as is the Anti Christ State of IsraHell.

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/bill10979/equityindicesbh4.jpg)
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: pope daniel on April 21, 2011, 03:27:37 AM
I think the majority of the vaticans wealth lies in its boundless golden idolatries
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 21, 2011, 05:22:33 AM
I think the majority of the vaticans wealth lies in its boundless golden idolatries

Oh, you mean like Michaelangelos Sistine Chapel commissioned by the Pope?

Quote
People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues.
For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends.
The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord.
All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan"
(1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

When God made the New Covenant with us, he did reveal himself under a visible form in Jesus Christ. For that reason, we can make representations of God in Christ.

Revelation 8:3
 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with  THE PRAYERS OF ALL SAINTS upon the golden altar which was before the throne.  And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry.



Protest-ants & Jews know the final empire in the Scriptures will be 100% Roman Catholic, so the true gospel can be preached to the world before JEW Anti Christ.
And why they attack the Catholic Church, its peoples, monasteries, and governments.
They know the whore is Judaism/ Occult Judaism.
OCCULT Jews occupy The Throne for now.
The Secret OCCULT govt will try and gain both control of Oil & Jerusalem =WW which we are on the precipice of.




"As Cain was a wanderer and an outcast, not to be killed by anyone but marked with the sign of fear on his forehead, so the Jews . . . against whom the voice of the blood of Christ cries out . . . although they are not to be killed they must always be dispersed as wanderers upon the face of the earth."(1)
(1) Migne, Patrologia, CCXV, 1291.
-Pope Innocent III



'We decree and order that from now on, and for all time, Christians shall not eat or drink with Jews; nor admit them to feasts, nor cohabit with them...
Christians shall not allow Jews to hold civil honors over Christians, or to exercise public offices in the State ."
-His Holiness, Pope Eugenius IV, 1442 A.D. Bull. Rom. Pont., V, 67.



Pope St Agatho III Council of Constantinople;
"If any ecclesiastic or layman shall go into the synagogue of the Jews or the meeting houses of the heretics to join in prayers with them let them be deposed and deprived of communion."




Daniel,

Your kind are a lot of disorganized, chaotic back-stabbing phonies.

You complain of Catholic order, but haven't here in America or elsewhere, shown the restraint and coordination necessary to combat your own enemies; quite the contrary, you have a history of doing foolish business with them.........your "personal relationship with God" allowed you to rationalize away essential cultural infrastructure for silver.

You bitch about "universalism" while offering no tangible firewalls against such as you heedlessly globe-trot seeking to "open new markets".

Hey, don't forget the Jew-lovers who don't go in for the other funny stuff.............proper American Protestants must always remember to never give way to any modern idea except receiving Judas silver.

So, now the "reformation" has proven to be weak and ill-conceived, now that your starting point is in ashes and traditional Christianity is sick from contact with a diseased body, you would like nothing better than to kill whats left?

Hypocrites..
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: thomaspain on April 21, 2011, 11:28:00 AM
"As Cain was a wanderer and an outcast, not to be killed by anyone but marked with the sign of fear on his forehead, so the Jews . . . against whom the voice of the blood of Christ cries out . . . although they are not to be killed they must always be dispersed as wanderers upon the face of the earth."(1)
(1) Migne, Patrologia, CCXV, 1291.
-Pope Innocent III


'We decree and order that from now on, and for all time, Christians shall not eat or drink with Jews; nor admit them to feasts, nor cohabit with them...
Christians shall not allow Jews to hold civil honors over Christians, or to exercise public offices in the State ."
-His Holiness, Pope Eugenius IV, 1442 A.D. Bull. Rom. Pont., V, 67.



Pope St Agatho III Council of Constantinople;
"If any ecclesiastic or layman shall go into the synagogue of the Jews or the meeting houses of the heretics to join in prayers with them let them be deposed and deprived of communion."



   Most of these rulings of past Popes have been ignored by today's Catholic Church. The Popes of today are the same children of their times that the old Popes were. Their rulings were regarding affairs that were current in their times. The Catholic Church has constantly changed with the times to remain a leading force bringing us into higher levels of Civilization. Study of the past to further your understanding of the essence of the Church may be worthwhile. A deeper study of the essence of Christ's teaching would be more Christian.

   The Jews spend lifetimes studying their Talmud. It is a history of the teachings of their church in modern? times. They search it to see how things related to the problems of today were handled in the past, with a hope to be able to adapt them to today. They realize that the wild rantings of the past were not divine guidance, but rather natural human reactions to the then current situations. Any other use of the writings is counter-productive.

   I had a personal dealing with the Talmud. A coworker, who was a nudist, asked me a question. I have no idea of why he thought I could answer it. His question was: "When should he end his nudity in front of his daughter". It is odd, but one of the threads on Liberty Forum that night was regarding similar matters. The answer given from the Talmud was to end the habit when the daughter showed signs of discomfort at the practice. I passed this on to him and he felt it was a fine answer. I was mystified by the sequence of events but attributed it to God's Will.

Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 21, 2011, 11:43:56 AM
   Most of these rulings of past Popes have been ignored by today's Catholic Church.
The Popes of today are the same children of their times that the old Popes were. Their rulings were regarding affairs that were current in their times.

The Catholic Church has constantly changed with the times to remain a leading force bringing us into higher levels of Civilization. Study of the past to further your understanding of the essence of the Church may be worthwhile.

A deeper study of the essence of Christ's teaching would be more Christian.

The Church, Pre Vatican 2, was unchanged in 1700 years.

From the Mass, The Catechism, The Faith,  to the teachings regarding  the faithless & Perfidious Jews, Jewry and their role in killing Christ, to the Sacraments and tradition.



I think I well understand Christ's Teachings....

'You belong to your father, the Devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.
He was a Murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is No truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a Liar and the father of lies.'

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?


Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites! 
You tithe mint, and anise, and cummin, and have forgotten the weightier things of the law; judgment, and mercy, and faith.
These things you ought to have done, and not to leave those undone.'


'I did not come to bring peace, but the sword.'


'He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy a sword; that is, if he could get one no other way.'

When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
 In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money.  So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.
To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!”
 His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.

“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.  Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’
 If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.
 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me.





Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: thomaspain on April 21, 2011, 04:06:41 PM
The Church, Pre Vatican 2, was unchanged in 1700 years.

From the Mass, The Catechism, The Faith,  to the teachings regarding  the faithless & Perfidious Jews, Jewry and their role in killing Christ, to the Sacraments and tradition.



I think I well understand Christ's Teachings....

'You belong to your father, the Devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.
He was a Murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is No truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a Liar and the father of lies.'

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?


Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites! 
You tithe mint, and anise, and cummin, and have forgotten the weightier things of the law; judgment, and mercy, and faith.
These things you ought to have done, and not to leave those undone.'


'I did not come to bring peace, but the sword.'


'He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy a sword; that is, if he could get one no other way.'

When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
 In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money.  So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.
To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!”
 His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.

“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.  Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’
 If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.
 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me.



   These wild unconnected statements certainly make Christianity, and especially Catholicism, appear ridiculous. If that was your aim, you were successful. If it was not your aim, reconsider what you write. Strive for quality in place of quantity. Go for one shot- one kill rather than the shotgun effect. Let your post be a dagger rather than a club. Who am I, what authority do I have? I am just one of the readers of what you write.

Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: laconas on April 21, 2011, 04:30:44 PM
   These wild unconnected statements certainly make Christianity, and especially Catholicism, appear ridiculous. If that was your aim, you were successful. If it was not your aim, reconsider what you write. Strive for quality in place of quantity. Go for one shot- one kill rather than the shotgun effect. Let your post be a dagger rather than a club. Who am I, what authority do I have? I am just one of the readers of what you write.

I'm still working-up to be on the dagger level. Mostly I'm just a thorn or a splinter.  :)
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: thomaspain on April 21, 2011, 04:42:29 PM
I'm still working-up to be on the dagger level. Mostly I'm just a thorn or a splinter.  :)

   Its effect is very dependent on where the pain is felt.
(Mea Culpa, a one liner, I just could not resist)
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 21, 2011, 05:46:09 PM
   These wild unconnected statements certainly make Christianity, and especially Catholicism, appear ridiculous. If that was your aim, you were successful. If it was not your aim, reconsider what you write. Strive for quality in place of quantity. Go for one shot- one kill rather than the shotgun effect. Let your post be a dagger rather than a club. Who am I, what authority do I have? I am just one of the readers of what you write.

Not sure what is so wild or unconnected.
I only used Christ's own words from the 4 Gospels.

And my statement regarding the Faith and our Orthodox teachings being unchanging is factual.

I can cite most of the great Saints and all of the matters of the Faith, Jewry and the sacraments would be consistent in those 1600+ years..

Maybe Im overkill at times, too much coffee today.
I  forgot to empty my tea pot this morning, and made my French press coffee using day old old coffee in the tea pot rather than fresh water.
Walts a bit edgy today.



'Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies and haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their fathers' faith, advocates of the devil, a brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, the leaven of Pharisees, a congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, haters of goodness!'
~ St. Gregory of Nyssa

The Jews are enemies of God and foes of our holy religion.
~ Padre Pio

The Synagogue is a Godless house, a collection of Wickedness, and God Himself has Damned it.
~ St. Ambrose (PAC, p.642)


'Jews worship the devil: their rites are criminal and unchaste; their religion a disease; their synagogue an assembly of crooks, a den of thieves, a cavern of devils, an abyss of perdition!
God Hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day He will say to those who sympathize with them., "Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!" Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and, far from venerating the synagogue, hold it in Hatred and aversion.'
~ St. John Chrysostom




Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 22, 2011, 04:27:07 AM

Quote
Agreed.
So Tell that to your Protest-ant Preachers.
They Molest at a rate of 40:1 to Catholics according to the 3 largest Insurers.
And make sure to tell that to your Jewish Rabbi friends too.

your feeble attempts to defend your church keeps you blind to the fact that "ALL HAVE SINNED"

you constantly compare yourself with protastant and joos...neither of which proclaim they are the ONE TRUE church and any outside them are heretics deserving of death...

but your church claims just that
 
just because others sin doesnt absolve your church...

Quote
And Public School employees.
again they dont set a standard
your church self exalted does...

Quote
I think Christ meant the Evangelical Protestants Worshipping false idol and practicing idolatry here with Bisexual war monger George Bush

And Rotund false prophet Shabbos-Goy Hagee

its getting old Walt...blaming others for the same thing your church does...

these guys are merely crusading for the New JOOrusalem...who else did that?

Quote
Here we have Orthodoxy, the Unbloody Sacrifice on Calvary, 1900 year old
unbloody? that's the problem with idolatry...it changes the reality...

how often do you crucify christ anew? literally eat his flexh and blood? miraculous indeed

Quote
Jew Money lenders were not protected, they had their wealth confiscated.
Usury was banned.
I already addressed your pathetic argument that the church protected Europe from JOOS...and I have given examples

It has always been the other way around...

JOOS WERE PROTECTED BY THE CHURCH

"The truth is that the popes and the Catholic Church from the earliest days of the Church were never responsible for physical persecution of Jews and only Rome, among the capitals of the world, is free from having been a place of Jewish tragedy. For this we Jews must have gratitude.” Quoted by David Goldstein in Jewish Panorama (Boston: Catholic Campaigners for Christ, 1940) p. 200

in 1273, Pope Gregory X issued “…an encyclical to all Christians forbidding them to baptize Jews by force or to injure their persons, or to take away their money, or to disturb them during the celebration of their religious festivals.” http://www.secondexodus.com/html/jewishcatholicdialogue/persecution.htm

as for Usury banned...ha ha ha...it was banned for christians to handle the money...

thank God those poor persecuted JOOS were around living in their bank vault ghettos

Quote
The Church is Not the Richest Global Corporation.
More Zio Nonsense.

ha ha ha

"The Vatican's treasure of solid gold has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion dollars. A large bulk of this is stored in gold ingots with the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while banks in England and Switzerland hold the rest. But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country. When to that is added all the real estate, property, stocks and shares abroad, then the staggering accumulation of the wealth of the Catholic church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment."
http://thetruthandthetruthalone.blogspot.com/2009/04/g20-could-borrow-monies-from-vatican.html

poor church...ha ha ha...

plus it owns the keys to the kingdom...that alone is worth how much?

don't underestimate your JOO led corporate state Walt...

it was even able to change times and God's laws
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 22, 2011, 09:34:36 AM

"The Vatican's treasure of solid gold has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion dollars. A large bulk of this is stored in gold ingots with the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while banks in England and Switzerland hold the rest. But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country. When to that is added all the real estate, property, stocks and shares abroad, then the staggering accumulation of the wealth of the Catholic church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment."
http://thetruthandthetruthalone.blogspot.com/2009/04/g20-could-borrow-monies-from-vatican.html

poor church...ha ha ha...
plus it owns the keys to the kingdom...that alone is worth how much?
don't underestimate your JOO led corporate state Walt...
it was even able to change times and God's laws

So we've come From the Worlds Richest Corporation, to a net worth of a few Billion.....thanks for admitting your ignorance and disinfo.




your feeble attempts to defend your church keeps you blind to the fact that "ALL HAVE SINNED"
you constantly compare yourself with protastant and joos...neither of which proclaim they are the ONE TRUE church and any outside them are heretics deserving of death...
but your church claims just that
just because others sin doesnt absolve your church...
 again they dont set a standard
your church self exalted does...

its getting old Walt...blaming others for the same thing your church does...

I dont defend crimes, I merely point out the hypocritical double standards, amongst those throwing stones..
According to the 3 largest Insurance companies, there were 6 incidents in the Catholic Church but 260 in Protestant Sects and 40 alone in Jewish Synaogues in Brooklyn Alone.
The Church is made of fallible men and women. Always has been, but the teachings and Faith are intact and guarded by the Holy Spirit.  That is Catholicism.



how often do you crucify christ anew? literally eat his flexh and blood? miraculous indeed
I already addressed your pathetic argument that the church protected Europe from JOOS...and I have given examples

It has always been the other way around...
Guess you dont read your Bible much or practice your Faith, even as a Crytpo Jew.
"I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you"
(John 6:53).

This is why Jews worked to steal communion wafers for use in their Black Magic Occult rituals.
They dont even bother with Protestant service meals, already being inherantly invalid.






in 1273, Pope Gregory X issued “…an encyclical to all Christians forbidding them to baptize Jews by force or to injure their persons, or to take away their money, or to disturb them during the celebration of their religious festivals.” http://www.secondexodus.com/html/jewishcatholicdialogue/persecution.htm
as for Usury banned...ha ha ha...it was banned for christians to handle the money...
thank God those poor persecuted JOOS were around living in their bank vault ghettos

Forced conversions did not work The Church found out later. It was reversed as a practice.
But Catholics were and are the only force the Church fears, the expulsions from 100+ nations and Inquisition are a testament to righteousness and justice extracted by the Church to the perfidious Jews..
Jews could not practice medicine, law, education or much else, but we looked the other way in dealing with money. Often times it was later confiscated.

ha ha ha
Glad youre laughing you Judaic  imbecile, now leave me alone on this most Holy Good Friday.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 22, 2011, 11:44:06 AM
I think the majority of the vaticans wealth lies in its boundless golden idolatries

agreed...

idoalatry? that is a sore spot with catholics...they like to avoid that commandment completely

here is a catholic site listing what's written specifically in the bible and what is in
 
Traditional Catechetical Formula

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm


notice how the prohibition to images is excluded...the fourth commandment to remember seventh day sabbath is now the third commandment

and the 10th commandment is split into two wth the prohibition to covet your neighbors wife precedes coveting your neighbor's goods...

so if they can alter scripture I am sure they can keep false economic books too :)

no one will ever know how rich the church is...

..."thou art finally another God on earth."
Source: Sacrorum Conciliorum: Nova et Amplissima Collectio, J. D. Mansi (ed.), Paris, 1902, Huberti Welter, Vol. 32, col. 761, Latin

http://www.aloha.net//~mikesch/claims.htm

Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 22, 2011, 01:14:03 PM
So we've come From the Worlds Richest Corporation, to a net worth of a few Billion.....thanks for admitting your ignorance and disinfo.

it more than a few billion silly man...again, "the wealth of the Catholic church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment..."

Quote
Faith and teachings are intact and guarded by the Holy Spirit.  That is Catholicism.
your are against this current pope yourself...does that mean you are against the HOLY SPIRIT which according to your tradition chose this pope...

as if the Holy Ghost and Jesus need help keeping the flock...

Quote
Guess you dont read your Bible much or practice your Faith, even as a Crytpo Jew.
"I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you"
(John 6:53).
so you are literally eating and drinking christ?...

poor guy how fat does He have to be for everyone to get a piece?

and by the way...why only the bread? why you go and change that too?

In the fifteenth century, the Roman Catholic Church decided to establish a new and binding rule -- namely, that the laity should receive only the bread, as expressed in the following citation:

http://www.justforcatholics.org/a119.htm

christ gave the blood and the wine to ALL...even one apostle with a devil...but your church excludes at will...


Quote
Forced conversions did not work The Church found out later. It was reversed as a practice.
it also reversed "to love your enemies"...but the JOO was not an enemy to the church thus the church protected the JOO
Quote
But Catholics were and are the only force the Church fears,
you are amusing

Quote
the expulsions from 100+ nations and Inquisition are a testament to righteousness and justice extracted by the Church to the perfidious Jews..
Jews could not practice medicine, law, education or much else, but we looked the other way in dealing with money. Often times it was later confiscated.

I already showed you  that the church protected JOOS...

Quote
Glad youre laughing you Judaic  imbecile, now leave me alone on this most Holy Good Friday.

leave you alone? ha ha ha...when did your church leave anyone alone?...or at least stop changing laws and scripture?

as for good friday...that's being debated too...

There have been many noted believers in a Wednesday crucifixion, from the time of the early church until now. These include Epiphanus, Victorinus of Petau in 307 AD, Lactantius, Wescott, Cassiodorus, and Gregory of Tours. Later, Finis Dake and R.A. Torrey also believed in a Wednesday crucifixion. We now know that the Bible teaches a Wednesday crucifixion, so the reader now must face the facts of the Bible as compared to the traditions of men.

http://ad2004.com/prophecytruths/Articles/Prophecy/3days3nights.html

and this from http://www.rakkav.com/qahal/pdfs/hoeh_crucifixion_1979.pdf

One of the first post-biblical attempts to explain the day of the resurrection from the dead late Saturday to the hours of Sunday morning occurred in the spurious "gospel of Peter," which was probably circulated from Rome about the time of the death of the apostle John. This "gospel" reads as follows: "And then they drew out the nails from the hands of the Lord, and laid him upon the earth... and the Jews rejoiced, and gave his body to Joseph that he might bury it….And he took the Lord, and washed him, and rolled him in a linen cloth, and brought him into his own tomb….And I with my companions were grieved; and being wounded in mind we hid ourselves…and upon all these things we fasted and sat mourning night and day until the Sabbath.
"But the scribes and Pharisees and elders being gathered together one with another...came to Pilate, beseeching him and saying, Give us soldiers, that we may guard his sepulchre for three days, lest his disciples come and steal him away….And with them came elders and scribes to the sepulchre, and having rolled a great stone together with the centurion and the soldiers, they all together who were there set it at the door of the sepulchre; and they affixed seven seals...and guarded it. And early in the morning as the sabbath was drawing [dawning], there came a multitude from Jerusalem and the region round about, that they might see the sepulchre that was sealed.
"And in the night in which the Lord's day was drawing on…the tomb was opened"—and Jesus was already risen— he was not there (from the Ante-Nicene Fathers, volume 10, pages 7-8).

It may be of interest to note that, even in the 21st century, many of the Roman Catholics still teach that this Passover (which they call the Last Supper) was kept by Jesus on a Tuesday night and that He was betrayed on a Wednesday (Zanchettin L, ed. Meditations, Tuesday, April 11, Wednesday April 12. the WORD among us–The #1 Monthly Devotional for Catholics. 2006; Volume 25, Number 4, pp. 63-64). http://www.cogwriter.com/news/church-history/jesus-crucifixion-was-on-a-wednesday/

By the fifth century, Easter Sunday celebrations were widespread. However, a church historian of the time named Socrates notes in a section of his history titled "Differences of Usage in Regard to Easter" that some Christians celebrated the resurrection on the Sabbath rather than on Sunday. As he put it, "Others in the East kept that feast on the Sabbath indeed."

Bishop Gregory of Tours (538-594), although himself believing in a Sunday resurrection, noted that many believed Jesus rose on the seventh day of the week, stating, "In our belief the resurrection of the Lord was on the first day, and not on the seventh as many deem."

So rather than a monolithic acceptance of the Good Friday–Easter Sunday scenario, there was confusion about the timing of Christ's crucifixion in early centuries. Moreover, these historical records show that a minority of Christians during that time understood the biblical timing of a Tuesday evening Passover, a Wednesday crucifixion and a late Saturday afternoon resurrection. http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn63/jesus_crucifixion.htm
 

here's one of my running  favorites....ironically it keeps crucifixion on a friday... :)

http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/resurrection/res1.htm



Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 22, 2011, 01:35:08 PM
agreed...

idoalatry? that is a sore spot with catholics...they like to avoid that commandment completely

here is a catholic site listing what's written specifically in the bible and what is in
 
Traditional Catechetical Formula

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm


notice how the prohibition to images is excluded...the fourth commandment to remember seventh day sabbath is now the third commandment

and the 10th commandment is split into two wth the prohibition to covet your neighbors wife precedes coveting your neighbor's goods...

so if they can alter scripture I am sure they can keep false economic books too :)

http://www.aloha.net//~mikesch/claims.htm

If you keep a picture of a loved one, is it worshipped?

You Judaized morons are too stupid to know the difference between Idolatry and Remembrance or veneration .


Interesting too that Most Protestant versions of the Bible, when revised, are submitted to an organization known as the “Council of Rabbis” for verification/proof-reading, prior to publication.
This is how the printed word of GOD becomes corrupted/obfuscated.

I dont see any idols other than Christ, nor see any people worshipping statues or photos..
You have us confused with Warvanglical  Protest-ants..

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GK9vk5xxaSs/Rfbro-CqTOI/AAAAAAAAArg/JzF-swVZmwg/s1600/Tridentine%2BMass%2Bin%2BSt.%2BLouis.jpg)



(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_DKalLszMZCo/Sufqq1YMxTI/AAAAAAAABEE/8JVk1V9H9kQ/s400/bushcutout.jpg)


Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 22, 2011, 01:45:35 PM

it more than a few billion silly man...again, "the wealth of the Catholic church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment..."
I used your own words and quoted the Cardinal..a few Billion in worth, and $15 million annual revenues. 
There are 50 Jew Zios worth more than the Vatican.



your are against this current pope yourself...does that mean you are against the HOLY SPIRIT which according to your tradition chose this pope...
There have been over 40 Anti popes throughout history, Jews have sought destruction of the Church for a long time, this crisis is no different.



as if the Holy Ghost and Jesus need help keeping the flock...
 so you are literally eating and drinking christ?...
Yes.


poor guy how fat does He have to be for everyone to get a piece?
Typical Jew Talk....gutter blasphemous talk.  I knew you were not a Christian long ago.


and by the way...why only the bread? why you go and change that too?
Depends, Orthodox and Moronite Masses Ive attended allow commuion dipped in wine.




it also reversed "to love your enemies"...but the JOO was not an enemy to the church thus the church protected the JOO  you are amusing
“The Jews, Who both Killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have Persecuted us, and please not God, and are Adversaries to All men”
 (1 Thessalonians 2:15-16)

“We know that this most perverse people, Jews have always been the cause and seed-bag of almost all the heresies.”
(Pope St Pius V, Decree, February 26, 1569; L. Pastor, Historia de los Papas, vol 17, p. 306.)


“Ungrateful for favors and forgetful of benefits, the Jews return insult for kindness and impious contempt for goodness. They ought to know the yoke of perpetual enslavement because of their guilt. See to it that the perfidious Jews never in the future grow insolent, but that they always suffer publicly the shame of their sin in servile fear.”
(Pope Gregory IX, Epistle to the Heirarchy in Germany, 1233)


I already showed you  that the church protected JOOS...
And protected them by Expelling them from 108 Nation States and Inquisitioning them, or requiring them to wear badges and confined to GHettos under strict laws..
Got it.

(http://www.simpletoremember.com/images/uploads/CCJHistory48Inquisition230x.jpg)

(http://boulderjewishnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/inquisition.jpg)

(http://covers.openlibrary.org/b/id/158781-L.jpg)
(http://kopjik.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/the-jewish-deportation-from-spain.jpg)





leave you alone? ha ha ha...when did your church leave anyone alone?...or at least stop changing laws and scripture?
Prots, Heretics, Cryptos and Judaized Prots do it at will, and why there are 35,000 Prot Sects today, none can agree on anything.


as for good friday...that's being debated too...
Sure, the Rabbis are all over it, debating, agonizing over it and kvetching.



By the fifth century, Easter Sunday celebrations were widespread. However, a church historian of the time named Socrates notes in a section of his history titled "Differences of Usage in Regard to Easter" that some Christians celebrated the resurrection on the Sabbath rather than on Sunday. As he put it, "Others in the East kept that feast on the Sabbath indeed."
Jews more than likely.





Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 22, 2011, 05:33:22 PM
If you keep a picture of a loved one, is it worshipped?
why the need for a picture when you are actually with the real deal?
Walt seriously, the prohibition is MAKE NO IMAGES...got it?
YOUR LOVED ONE COMMANDED YOU NOT TO MAKE A PICTURE and well you disobeyed...

Quote
You Judaized morons are too stupid to know the difference between Idolatry and Remembrance or veneration .
MAKE NO IMAGE and then WORSHIP NO IMAGE....you do read dont you?


Quote
Interesting too that Most Protestant versions of the Bible, when revised, are submitted to an organization known as the “Council of Rabbis” for verification/proof-reading, prior to publication.
This is how the printed word of GOD becomes corrupted/obfuscated.
the printed word of God is more accurate than any interpretation of it...the corruption and deception occurs in its preaching and teaching...especially by those false christs and those claiming to be standing in the place of christ...
besides large portions of the bible are in hebrew...who else should it be sent to?...the japanese?

Quote
I dont see any idols other than Christ, nor see any people worshipping statues or photos..
You have us confused with Warvanglical Protest-ants..
"Warvanglical protest-ant"....ha ha ha you are clever and entertaining...why you fault them for continuing the glorious work of the church militant universal...
global religious corporate empires need building...the New JOOrusalem...the glorious crusades continue...
sorry you dont agree with the method but your church appreciates it...even with its anti-pope
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 22, 2011, 06:06:11 PM
why the need for a picture when you are actually with the real deal?
Walt seriously, the prohibition is MAKE NO IMAGES...got it?
YOUR LOVED ONE COMMANDED YOU NOT TO MAKE A PICTURE and well you disobeyed...
MAKE NO IMAGE and then WORSHIP NO IMAGE....you do read dont you?
I speak of a deceased loved one.  Is their photo worshipped?  Of course not, you fool.

In the Old Testament, God Ordained & permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the Ark of the Covenant, and cherubim.”
(Num 21:4-9; Wis 16:5-14; John 3:14:15; Exodus 25:10-22; 1 kings 6:23-28; 7:23-26)


Images, icons, statues, they are all reminders of God’s 3 Divine Persons. Catholics do not adore or worship these images, icons and statues.
They adore and worship He who is, represented by these man made objects, as reminders.

Pictures and Statues of saints remind us of their lives, their virtues and the blessings they received from God.
The objects remind us that we can pray to the Saints in the sense of asking them to intercede before God on our behalf.

Calvin the Jew was responsible for stripping our Christian Churches to resemble Synagogues.

the printed word of God is more accurate than any interpretation of it...the corruption and deception occurs in its preaching and teaching...especially by those false christs and those claiming to be standing in the place of christ...
besides large portions of the bible are in hebrew...who else should it be sent to?...the japanese?
There was no Bible or printed word for 300+ years AD, and no printing press for 1500 years.
Today, there are over 50 Mistranslated versions of the 'printed word'
More Protest-ant error you spout.

One neednt be Literate or have eyesight to obtain Salvation.  Interpretation through Faith & works and Sacraments, are all that is required.


"Warvanglical protest-ant"....ha ha ha you are clever and entertaining...why you fault them for continuing the glorious work of the church militant universal...
global religious corporate empires need building...the New JOOrusalem...the glorious crusades continue...
sorry you dont agree with the method but your church appreciates it...even with its anti-pope
Killing for Jewry and a Flag is not glorious or Godly. It has nothing to do with the militant Church universal.



Mods..
Please moderate. 
This is yet another Thread HIJACK by Clefty, as it relates TO religion,  not the Civil War, and which Im sure others are sick of reading.
I am responding, not provoking or antagonizing.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 22, 2011, 07:06:53 PM

I used your own words and quoted the Cardinal..a few Billion in worth, and $15 million annual revenues. 
There are 50 Jew Zios worth more than the Vatican.

You claim the pope is ruler of the world Walt....think about it...all the wealth of the world is his...

and as you claim he has the keys to the kingdom...now that's even more gold...


Quote
There have been over 40 Anti popes throughout history, Jews have sought destruction of the Church for a long time, this crisis is no different.

this crisis...is it the fault of the Holy Spirit?...did Peter look away?...is the virgin Mary sleeping?...

this crises means God abandoned His church?...


Quote
Typical Jew Talk....gutter blasphemous talk.  I knew you were not a Christian long ago.

you judge me? ha ha ha...you are the one eating Christ's body and cannibalizing when He meant it as a metaphor...wow

 But His Father commanded
"But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." Genesis 9:4

"... No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood." Leviticus 17:12    

Christ would never contradict His Father's Law...

but I guess you guys are like the apostles who were confused about the "leavening of the phariseez" and thought He meant bread...

but now I am confused because He says "out the heart of any who believe will flow rivers of living water"...that's alot of water...I've never seen it literally before...

He also says He is the Light...why did they bring torches to find Him in the garden at night?

He also says He is the Way...do we walk on Him?

oh wait the JOOS already quarreled among themselves saying "How can this Man give His flesh to eat? John 6:52

and when He saw that even His disciples were confused HE CLARIFIED "Does this offend you?...IT IS THE SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING"

oh and

"THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE"...John 6:62-63

but you insist its LITERALLY HIS BODY...wow...YOU WANT TO EAT JESUS and I am no Christian?...ha ha ha

so its literally blood being consumed on a supposedly bloodless sacrifice event...ha ha ha...

Quote
Depends, Orthodox and Moronite Masses Ive attended allow commuion dipped in wine.

WHAT? now there's Jesus dunking?

He gave BOTH WINE AND BREAD SEPERATELY TO ALL even to one with a devil...

but your church does NOT...either combining sacraments or preventing communion at all...



Quote
“The Jews, Who both Killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have Persecuted us, and please not God, and are Adversaries to All men”
 (1 Thessalonians 2:15-16)
and? does it say we kill JOOS or put them in cages? NO WE LOVE OUR ENEMIES



Quote
And protected them by Expelling them from 108 Nation States and Inquisitioning them, or requiring them to wear badges and confined to GHettos under strict laws..
Got it.
expelling? or spreading them around to mix into all of europe...

YOUR CHURCH WAS AND IS A TOOL FOR JOOS WALT...AND STILL PROTECTS THEM

Quote
Prots, Heretics, Cryptos and Judaized Prots do it at will, and why there are 35,000 Prot Sects today, none can agree on anything.

there you go again silly man...comparing yourself to others...

YOU DIVIDED FROM THE CHURCH FIRST...so dont blame others for doing it...

besides being IN CHRIST is not BEING LIKE MINDED

but it certainly doesnt mean we kill those who dont agree with us...

Communion was given to all...even one with a devil...the apostles certainly were not of one mind and even fought each other as to who was the greatest and who was most loved...

but communion was given to all...YOUR CHURCH EXCLUDES...

Quote
Sure, the Rabbis are all over it, debating, agonizing over it and kvetching.
oh you mean inquiring minds? searching for truth? as anyone who seeks to do the will of GOD...not submit to a church...or other man's thinkng...or tradition?

Quote
Jews more than likely.
ha ha ha...JOOOOS....yes Walt the early ekklesia was full of JOOS...ha ha ha

and other converts...like Lydia who was converted and baptized on the Sabbath Act 16:13....
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 22, 2011, 07:23:58 PM
I speak of a deceased loved one.  Is their photo worshipped?  Of course not, you fool.

In the Old Testament, God Ordained

um...He is the law giver...and if He want to break His own law...welll....

Quote
Killing for Jewry and a Flag is not glorious or Godly. It has nothing to do with the militant Church universal.

right it is not godly but it does undermine america

and supporting the break up of america and upholding slavery has everything to do with militant church universal...


Quote
Mods..
Please moderate. 
This is yet another Thread HIJACK by Clefty, as it relates TO religion,  not the Civil War, and which Im sure others are sick of reading.
I am responding, not provoking or antagonizing.

oh boo hoo...at least this time you went public...

you are blaming only JOOS for what happened in the civil war...

but it distracts from the fact that the corporate catholic church was instrumental in antagonizing that war to defeat america...

many lives were lost so I thought it best to be thorough as to the causes of the civil war...and subsequent establishment of the jooish vatican federal reserve
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 23, 2011, 06:10:02 AM
um...He is the law giver...and if He want to break His own law...welll....


How a painting of Christ, his Blessed Mother or the Agony in the Garden or the glorious mysteries is breaking his will is beyond me. 
You can take your Calvin/Cohen stripped Synagogue/Churches, along with your Anti Christ Jew Sabbath practices and eat them with your yamalka.



right it is not godly but it does undermine america
Well, make up your mind then.  You earlier  inferred that the present wars ARE Godly.  Another Jew flip flop.



and supporting the break up of america and upholding slavery has everything to do with militant church universal...
Now its the militan Synagogue Universal.
The play FOR America was in progress, Rome sided with the South, which already had states that outlawed Slavery before the Civil War.  The North which claimed to take the moral road with slavery, trafficked in  'Indentured Servants'  a polite word for Slaves, mostly Irish children.


oh boo hoo...at least this time you went public...
How many threads are you going to hijack with your Disinfo Bullcrap?




you are blaming only JOOS for what happened in the civil war...
They were behind it.  I give credit where credit is due.




but it distracts from the fact that the corporate catholic church was instrumental in antagonizing that war to defeat america...
America was defeated long before, as in 1790s when Freemason Alexander Hamilton and Rothschild did an end around to become the Central Bank for America.




many lives were lost so I thought it best to be thorough as to the causes of the civil war...and subsequent establishment of the jooish vatican federal reserve


And all this time, I though the FED was owned by Jews and run by Jews-like Friedman, Greenspan and Ben Shalom Bernanke. Thanks for setting me straight.

Jews and Protestants have been behind more killing than all other groups combined.  Prots doing the Jews bidding.
From India, To South Africa and the 1st Concentration Camps to wiping out 19 Million indians Using Scripture to defend the practice of Genocide and Jew Jacob Amhearsts Smallpox blankets-germ Warfare.
Jews caused the black plague, by their own admission, killing off half of Europe.
And former NARAL director Dr. Bernard Nathanson in his book CONFESSIONS OF AN X ABORTIONIST outlined how Jews duped Protestant groups to side with them against the Pro Life Catholic position, ultimately succeeding in passing Roe V Wade and killing off 53 Million Babies.
Youre a Hypocrite and a terrible disinfo liar, Clefty.
[/quote]
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 23, 2011, 06:24:46 AM
You claim the pope is ruler of the world Walt....think about it...all the wealth of the world is his...

The Vatican Does NOT Print Fiat Currency you moron.That is the new wealth as of today.



and as you claim he has the keys to the kingdom...now that's even more gold...
Whatever..


 

this crisis...is it the fault of the Holy Spirit?...did Peter look away?...is the virgin Mary sleeping?...
Its the fault of men, free will  and Jews who corrupt.



this crises means God abandoned His church?...
Of course not, nothing new in 1700 years. The struggle resumes.



you judge me? ha ha ha...you are the one eating Christ's body and cannibalizing when He meant it as a metaphor...wow
You ask for literal proof, and use the argument when it suits you, such as in 'Sabbath worship' but now call it a metaphor when it IS literal?  One cannot please a Hypocrite.
 Following GODs word is 'cannibalizing' now?



 But His Father commanded
"But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." Genesis 9:4



"... No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood." Leviticus 17:12    

Christ would never contradict His Father's Law...
You are countering New Testament with OLD testament.
You just contradicted CHRIST by Superceding HIS word with Old Testament. Old Testament malarchy, the Old which is Dead.
He Fulfilled The Old, it is Invalidated,  put on your Yamalka and do the hora if you wish.



but now I am confused because He says "out the heart of any who believe will flow rivers of living water"...that's alot of water...I've never seen it literally before...


Youre confused about alot of things, Jews often are.



He also says He is the Light...why did they bring torches to find Him in the garden at night?
More Jew talk on his Vigil of his crucifixion, what a sport you are, you Heretic.



 "How can this Man give His flesh to eat? John 6:52

And were soon set straight by Christ in his reply to them.

and when He saw that even His disciples were confused HE CLARIFIED "Does this offend you?...IT IS THE SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING"
oh and

"THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE"...John 6:62-63

but you insist its LITERALLY HIS BODY...wow...YOU WANT TO EAT JESUS and I am no Christian?...ha ha ha

so its literally blood being consumed on a supposedly bloodless sacrifice event...ha ha ha...
Its the remission of His blood and the unbloody sacrifice that atones for sins and transgressions.  Jews dont understand this.



 and? does it say we kill JOOS or put them in cages? NO WE LOVE OUR ENEMIES
'You are of Your Father the Devil'  It is for their safety and our safety that they are excluded from society and separated.
That is Loving..



 expelling? or spreading them around to mix into all of europe...
When a group is expelled they will mix into other locales, this cannot be prevented unless they are put on an island.
Im fine with Madagascar or Corsica.


YOUR CHURCH WAS AND IS A TOOL FOR JOOS WALT...AND STILL PROTECTS THEM
Prots & heretics sometimes make this claim but they themselves have no track record.
We have 1800 years of action, they have inaction.  Heaven knows we tried to keep the world safe from them, as did another Catholic aka Hitler.


Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: FrankDialogue on April 23, 2011, 06:42:37 AM

These long-term con-cycles work because trust is built up so the masses can be fleeced, and no one alive generally would have any experience of the last time that trust was burnt.

You need to be on an NPR/PBS panel...At least there would have been some straight talk...But you would make Judy Woodruff nervous.

(http://baldwinscholars.duke.edu/uploads/images/5405ce77b923f02d8b73282886d596b8.jpg)
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 23, 2011, 07:03:27 PM
These guys make the monsters invading Gaza look like boy scouts at hazing parties....

Gen. Sherman in a June 21, 1864, letter to Lincoln's Sec. of War, Edwin Station wrote, "There is a class of people men, women and children, who must be killed or banished before you can hope for peace and order."

a professor at Loyola College in Baltimore and historian and writer, tells us that Sherman once wrote to his wife that his purpose was the "extermination, not of soldiers alone...but of the people" of the South...
http://www.plpow.com/Atrocities_QuotesFromSherman.htm

Sheridan and Sherman were both catholics...

well schooled in the total war concept of the crusades...



oh and  Longstreet who contributed to the southern body count... converted to catholism after he betrayed the south...

any jooish generals? intent on maximizing southern deaths?...

naw..merely funding southern suicidal aspirations seems more like it...



see Walt?

I am on topic and critical of Joos too...

but because you boo hooed about me reminding readers of the catholic role in the dividing of america

 I moved my other answers to you to the another thread which was started by moderators because you complained about me...

The one I pointed out that the current middle east strife was also not just JOOS.....

http://www.freedomportal.net/index.php?topic=20621.0
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 23, 2011, 07:35:47 PM
These guys make the monsters invading Gaza look like boy scouts at hazing parties....

Gen. Sherman in a June 21, 1864, letter to Lincoln's Sec. of War, Edwin Station wrote, "There is a class of people men, women and children, who must be killed or banished before you can hope for peace and order."

a professor at Loyola College in Baltimore and historian and writer, tells us that Sherman once wrote to his wife that his purpose was the "extermination, not of soldiers alone...but of the people" of the South...
http://www.plpow.com/Atrocities_QuotesFromSherman.htm

Sheridan and Sherman were both catholics...

well schooled in the total war concept of the crusades...



oh and  Longstreet who contributed to the southern body count... converted to catholism after he betrayed the south...

any jooish generals? intent on maximizing southern deaths?...

naw..merely funding southern suicidal aspirations seems more like it...



see Walt?

I am on topic and critical of Joos too...

but because you boo hooed about me reminding readers of the catholic role in the dividing of america

 I moved my other answers to you to the another thread which was started by moderators because you complained about me...

The one I pointed out that the current middle east strife was also not just JOOS.....

http://www.freedomportal.net/index.php?topic=20621.0

'He was baptized a Catholic, he married a Catholic, his children were raised Catholic (one became a Jesuit), and he’s buried in a Catholic cemetery in St. Louis. (Here he’s seen in the front pew of St. Aloysius Church, Washington, D.C., at his daughter Minnie’s wedding in 1874.) But he never considered himself Catholic.

The story told by Sherman biographer John Marzalek is that when William was born Tecumseh Sherman in 1820. When his father died, at age nine he went to live with his neighbors, the Ewings, who were Catholic.
Mrs. Ewing insisted on his being baptized Catholic, and she got a priest to baptized him on the Feast day of St. William. Hence the name, William Tecumseh Sherman. But he never took it seriously and he was not at all religious.

 Ellen Ewing, his wife (and foster sister), was an extremely devout woman involved in a myriad of Church causes, much to her husband’s chagrin. When his son Tom decided to join the Jesuits, he was disappointed.
He wanted Tom to become a lawyer, and he never reconciled himself to his son’s decision. Yet he did have a Catholic funeral and was buried in St. Louis’ Calvary Cemetery. Begrudgingly, one thinks.



Superficially Sherman was a Catholic the way Bob Hope was: most nominally, having been baptized, married and buried in the Church.
But if you dig deeper, things get more interesting.
His son Thomas claimed that WT was actually an observant, church-going Catholic up till the Civil War (when Sherman had a breakdown or episode of madness and despair). Sherman's refusal to run for President occurred in an era when anti-Catholicism was a linchpin of many Republican platforms.
(James G. Blaine, for example, is mostly remembered for his anti-Catholic stance even though he was raised in a Catholic family and had a sister who was a nun.) This makes me wonder if the "Shermanesque refusal" really had something to do with disgust over sectarian politics.

When Sherman died, and received Extreme Unction followed by a Catholic funeral and burial, there was great outcry among anti-Catholic divines and journalists: "their" great general was being co-opted by the Popish interests because the Sherman family had somehow been seduced by wily Rome.
On a lighter note: Sherman was not originally named merely "Tecumseh" and then baptized William; that was an early biographer's error.'



You can do better than this Clefty..

Its an insult to any intelligent person to read your crap.

Protestants and Jews have wrecked far more blood and havoc in the world than Catholics.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 23, 2011, 07:42:02 PM


any jooish generals? intent on maximizing southern deaths?...

naw..merely funding southern suicidal aspirations seems more like it...


http://www.freedomportal.net/index.php?topic=20621.0

Lots of Jewish Generals, youre just not interested in reporting them, or have an agenda.
the latter in this case..

In the North, the record shows that there were many Jewish officers: 8 were generals, 21 colonels, 9 lieutenant colonels, 40 majors, 205 captains, 325 lieutenants, 48 adjutants and 25 surgeons.



Lincoln's Jewish generals

By Herb Geduld


http://www.jewishworldreview.com -- AT the beginning of the Civil War in 1861, the United States Army was pitifully small.

It consisted of 1,108 officers and 15,269 enlisted men.
Of the thousand-odd officers, more than a third resigned their posts to join the Confederacy. To lead the millions of men who ultimately fought in the Civil War would take a lot of generals, and ultimately more than 1000 were appointed by the Union alone. Of these, at least seven were Jewish.


The Jewish generals in the Union Army were not well-known and almost have been lost from the history books. The highest ranking Jewish officer in the Union Army was Hungarian-born Major General Frederick Knefler.
He was commander of the 79th Indiana regiment. Knefler was promoted to brigadier general for his performance at the Battle of Chickamauga and then to major general during his service with Sherman on his march through Georgia.

Leopold Blumenberg was a lieutenant in the Prussian Army in 1848. Because of antisemitism he immigrated to the United States in 1854.
An avowed abolitionist, he narrowly escaped lynching by a secessionist mob in Baltimore in early April 1861. With the start of the war, Blumenberg helped organize the Maryland Volunteer Regiment and fought with it in the Peninsular campaign.

He was severely wounded in the Battle of Antietam in 1862, and subsequently was appointed a brevet brigadier general. A brevet military appointment is a commission usually granted as an honor, carrying the rank of the new office but without an increase in pay or authority. Many officers were given brevet commissions during the Civil War.

There were actually two ways of being appointed a general during this period. The first was through politics, where men were appointed because of their political influence rather than their military ability. Most of these "generals" proved to be costly misfits for the Union forces. The second method of assuming a general's office was through winning their stars on the battlefield by superior performance.
Fortunately, all the Jewish generals described here attained their high rank through the latter procedure.

One Jewish officer who only made it to general's rank posthumously was Lieutenant Colonel Leopold Newman of New York. He distinguished himself at the First Battle of Bull Run, which was a defeat for the Union. Newman was subsequently severely wounded at the Battle of Chancellorsville in 1863, and he died in a Washington hospital before President Abraham Lincoln could present him with a commission to brigadier general.

Perhaps the most notable of the Jewish generals was Edward S. Salomon of Illinois. Salomon emigrated from Germany to Chicago in 1854, where he became a law clerk and a minor functionary in the newly formed Republican Party. He was elected to the Chicago City Council at the age of 24, the youngest member of that body.

With the outbreak of the Civil War, Salomon enlisted in the 25th Illinois Infantry as a second lieutenant and won quick promotions for battlefield bravery.
At Gettysburg in 1863, he was colonel in command of the 82nd Illinois Volunteer Infantry, which had over 100 Jewish personnel.
His unit fought at Cemetery Ridge and was one of the principal Union forces which successfully repulsed Pickett's charge. Salomon received a commendation for bravery and was breveted a brigadier general.

Salomon served with General Sherman in the Battle for Atlanta and was cited as "one of the most deserving officers." After the war he led his men in a six-hour victory parade in Washington D.C., a commanding general at the age of 29.

President Ulysses S. Grant recognized Salomon's administrative capabilities and, in 1869, appointed him as governor of the Territory of Washington, where he served with distinction for four years. After leaving his post, Salomon settled in San Francisco. He was the district attorney of San Francisco County and twice served in the California legislature, devoting most of his life to public service.

Brigadier General Alfred Mordechai graduated from the U.S. Military Academy at West Point in 1861, following in his father's footsteps. He joined the Army of Northeastern Virginia and received high commendations for his conduct at the Battle of Bull Run. He became the chief ordnance officer in several Union regiments and, in 1865, was appointed instructor of ordnance at West Point.

Among the other Jewish generals in the Union forces were Phineas Horowitz of Baltimore, who was appointed surgeon general of the Navy during the war, and General William Meyer of New York, who received a letter of thanks from President Lincoln for his efforts during the New York draft riots.
There were no Jewish generals with the Confederate forces during the Civil War, but that's another tale'


Big surprise there, Jews wanted the South destroyed, to 'Federalize' them..
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 23, 2011, 07:58:37 PM
When Sherman died, and received Extreme Unction followed by a Catholic funeral and burial

extreme unction? ha ha ha....that's rich...so he was not anathema nor excommunicated...

he remained catholic and recieved the church's blessing....

and as for the evil he did...the pope and the virgin mary will clean that up right?

body counts are necessary in holy crusades for the church...this time it was in the south
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 23, 2011, 08:31:16 PM


aaah yes...the JOOOS

thanks for posting this...how could I forget...

Quote
Of these, at least seven were Jewish.
ok here we go...


Quote
Major General Frederick Knefler.
He was commander of the 79th Indiana regiment. Knefler then to major general during his service with Sherman on his march through Georgia.
ha ha ha...

Quote
Leopold Blumenberg .
An avowed abolitionist, he narrowly escaped lynching by a secessionist mob in Baltimore in early April 1861.
Maryland is catholic no?

Quote
One Jewish officer who only made it to general's rank posthumously was Lieutenant Colonel Leopold Newman of New York. He distinguished himself at the First Battle of Bull Run, which was a defeat for the Union.
hmmmm...

Quote
Edward Salomon served with General Sherman in the Battle for Atlanta and was cited as "one of the most deserving officers."
what another one? have you seen the pictures of atlanta...looks like dresden...


Quote
Brigadier General Alfred Mordechai graduated from the U.S. Military Academy at West Point in 1861, following in his father's footsteps. He joined the Army of Northeastern Virginia and received high commendations for his conduct at the Battle of Bull Run.
HMMMMM....

Quote
Among the other Jewish generals in the Union forces were Phineas Horowitz of Baltimore
Baltimore MARYland no?

Catholics and JOOS together....where have I seen this before?....


Quote
Big surprise there, Jews wanted the South destroyed, to 'Federalize' them..

and who else is behind the FED?
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: thomaspain on April 23, 2011, 09:24:57 PM
Prots, Heretics, Cryptos and Judaized Prots do it at will, and why there are 35,000 Prot Sects today, none can agree on anything.

   Protestantism is an odd affair. Reforming the abuses in a church by breaking away is the story of Christianity. Originally Christians were Jews who adopted the then revolutionary teachings of Christ. The Apostles went their ways to spread the revised Judaic teachings. They believed Christ's word that said he only came to save the Jews. They were prepared to accept non-Jews into their protestant fellowship only if they became Judaic converts. This was Apostolic Christianity. Jim Jones Saul/Paul arose with his newer protestant brand of Judaic Christianity. He no longer required full conversion to Judaism requiring circumcision. As a Roman citizen he was able to take his fellowship to Rome. There it converted those in Rome who were in effect protestants of the so called pagan religions. Some of the Apostles felt that his teachings were heretical. Some went along with him for their own private reasons. There were now two branches of protestant Judaism, Apostolic Christianity and Pauline/Roman Christianity. Jewish Judaic authority was overthrown and the Christianities became independent of it. The first 300 years of Christianity were chaotic with each of a multitude of groups striving for dominance of the growing fellowships. They were shameful and terrible times and in practice unChristian. Study of this period was later discouraged. Then with political aid, Roman Christianity unified and the Roman Catholic Church became dominant. In time the Church became corrupt as Judaism had in Christ's time and new prophets arose. They hatched newer protestant sects. This kept repeating itself until the number of protestant sects of one type or another are in the tens of thousands.

   This could be looked at as a tree with its branches multiplying and reaching Heavenward. It would seem positively holy if it were not polluted by the financial incentives and aspects of the religion industry.  All religions are seeing a decline in membership. Part of this is due to design by the Jews. Most of it is due to faults in the major religions. This decline could be for the later good. In the future, we could see some serious preaching coming out of the storefront churches of the bankrupt sects.
 
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 24, 2011, 07:31:01 AM
   Protestantism is an odd affair. Reforming the abuses in a church by breaking away is the story of Christianity.
Reform is one thing, Revolution is quite another.
Luther, with Jewry, Split Christendom and led his followers on a path to Hell, denying the Eucharist and other Sacraments.
He Mistranslated into the vulgate the word of GOD, and started this crisis, inventing the word JEW in the 2nd printing of the Sodomite Queer King James Bible edition.

Then with political aid, Roman Christianity unified and the Roman Catholic Church became dominant. In time the Church became corrupt as Judaism had in Christ's time and new prophets arose. They hatched newer protestant sects. This kept repeating itself until the number of protestant sects of one type or another are in the tens of thousands.
This is Jew speak, no offense.
Corruption means Jews arent happy with the status quo.
My goodness, history records that nations were never as happy or as prosperous than when the Church ruled. 
Soon after the Reformation Revolution, it was destruction, Usury, Debtors prison and divorce.



   This could be looked at as a tree with its branches multiplying and reaching Heavenward. It would seem positively holy if it were not polluted by the financial incentives and aspects of the religion industry.
 All religions are seeing a decline in membership. Part of this is due to design by the Jews. Most of it is due to faults in the major religions. This decline could be for the later good.
There are few finanical incentives for the Church, 90% of donations actually go towards Charity.
In the Dominican and Fransiscan orders, there is a vow of poverty.
They essentially live like monks. Theres no other way.
Originally, it was done to combat the Jew, who bribed and blackmailed his way to subvert.



Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 24, 2011, 07:34:10 AM
ok here we go...

 ha ha ha...
 Maryland is catholic no?
 hmmmm...
 what another one? have you seen the pictures of atlanta...looks like dresden...

 HMMMMM....
 Baltimore MARYland no?

Catholics and JOOS together....where have I seen this before?....


and who else is behind the FED?

Youve contradicted yourself so many times Ive lost count.
Rome supported the SOUTH.
Yet you want us to believe that the NORTH was led By Catholics..

Now when I point out your errant position of no supposed Jews leading as generals, you jump ship.  More Talmudic Jew speak.

Rome backed the South, as they knew what the Jew led North was up to, in terms of consolidating power to usurp states rights, ultimately bring a Federalized Central Bank/ power to issue fiat fractional reserve notes ala 1913.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 24, 2011, 08:12:37 PM

Youve contradicted yourself so many times Ive lost count.
you have lost more than count silly man

Quote
Rome supported the SOUTH.
Ha ha ha...and I thought it was the JOOOS who wanted to destroy america...

Quote
Yet you want us to believe that the NORTH was led By Catholics..
well that depends if you consider JOOsuit freemasonry catholic....I DO...

and then there were these two catholic crusading generals and their JOOISH side kicks doing what they have done throughout history as partners...crusade and destroy

Quote
Now when I point out your errant position of no supposed Jews leading as generals, you jump ship. More Talmudic Jew speak.


ha ha ha...these joos came from catholic north and LOST a major battle for the North and assisted nrothern atrocities done by catholics...

I wouldnt be surprised if those JOOS sabatoged the north at BULL RUN..

Quote
Rome backed the South,
Yes which you would have gladly avoided if I hadnt started this...

you wouldnt want to reveal the desire of rome to undermine america would you?

 glad you can admit that besides screeching JOO JOO JOO...

Quote
as they knew what the Jew led North was up to,
of course they knew JOOS and catholics have always been partners you silly man...

Quote
in terms of consolidating power to usurp states rights, ultimately bring a Federalized Central Bank/ power to issue fiat fractional reserve notes ala 1913

um right and the vatican has nothing to do with the federal reserve?...ha ha ha...

and has NO experience stealing, I mean acquiring, wealth

its just the JOOOOOS....

no its not you silly silly man....

after all JOOS and Catholics never got along right Walt?

as you said Rome supported the south...

cant let protestants get too big ya know...just big enough to take the heat...and hide behind...ha ha ha

thanks for the fun
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 25, 2011, 04:20:47 PM
The Vatican Does NOT Print Fiat Currency you moron.That is the new wealth as of today.

ha ha ha...Maybe not currency  but they have something even better...INDULGENCES

you do understand what FIAT means right Walt?

fi·at
–noun
1. an authoritative decree, sanction, or order: a royal fiat.
2. a formula containing the word fiat, by which a person in authority gives sanction.
3. an arbitrary decree or pronouncement, especially by a person or group of persons having absolute authority to enforce it: The king ruled by fiat.

your church perfected the deception of fiat by demanding people's REAL gold for a FIAT peice of paper with fancy wording and a pretty seal

this PAPER bought with gold or labor or who knows what...guaranteed the purchaser's grandmother 10 years less in purgatory
 
or for even more gold why the church would DECLARE grandma in heaven...

your corporate state "sold" for real gold or land or labor relics artifacts blessed trinkets and other such  idols to desperate believers with a FIAT declaring its authenticity...

How many nails which crucified christ were sold in such manner?

This was only one way your church became the financial power it is...

your corporate state IS FIAT and has no basis in scripture...but cowered people into believing it and thus accept the peice of paper which stipulated this authority

and so to keep this even more on topic

when Lincoln decided to declare his own FIAT with greenbacks...the vatican monopoly had to be protected and he was assissinated...

payback included for

"In 1855, he (Charles Chiniquy)was sued by a prominent Catholic layman named Peter Spink in Kankakee, Illinois. After the fall court term, Spink applied for a change of venue to the court in Urbana. Abraham Lincoln was then hired by Chiniquy to defend him. The spring court action in Urbana was the highest profile libel suit in Lincoln’s career. [2]
...
Chiniquy claimed that he was falsely accused by his superiors (and that Abraham Lincoln had come to his rescue), that the American Civil War was a plot against the United States of America by the Vatican, and that the Vatican was behind the Confederate cause, the death of President Lincoln and that Lincoln's assassins were faithful Roman Catholics ultimately serving Pope Pius IX"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Chiniquy

Thank GOD Lincoln was warned by Chiniquy and saw America's true enemy...which was the Vatican backed bankers...who well understand what FIAT is


Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 26, 2011, 05:12:24 AM
ha ha ha...Maybe not currency  but they have something even better...INDULGENCES

you do understand what FIAT means right Walt?

fi·at
–noun
1. an authoritative decree, sanction, or order: a royal fiat.
2. a formula containing the word fiat, by which a person in authority gives sanction.
3. an arbitrary decree or pronouncement, especially by a person or group of persons having absolute authority to enforce it: The king ruled by fiat.

your church perfected the deception of fiat by demanding people's REAL gold for a FIAT peice of paper with fancy wording and a pretty seal

this PAPER bought with gold or labor or who knows what...guaranteed the purchaser's grandmother 10 years less in purgatory
 
or for even more gold why the church would DECLARE grandma in heaven...

your corporate state "sold" for real gold or land or labor relics artifacts blessed trinkets and other such  idols to desperate believers with a FIAT declaring its authenticity...

How many nails which crucified christ were sold in such manner?

This was only one way your church became the financial power it is...

your corporate state IS FIAT and has no basis in scripture...but cowered people into believing it and thus accept the peice of paper which stipulated this authority

and so to keep this even more on topic

when Lincoln decided to declare his own FIAT with greenbacks...the vatican monopoly had to be protected and he was assissinated...

payback included for

"In 1855, he (Charles Chiniquy)was sued by a prominent Catholic layman named Peter Spink in Kankakee, Illinois. After the fall court term, Spink applied for a change of venue to the court in Urbana. Abraham Lincoln was then hired by Chiniquy to defend him. The spring court action in Urbana was the highest profile libel suit in Lincoln’s career. [2]
...
Chiniquy claimed that he was falsely accused by his superiors (and that Abraham Lincoln had come to his rescue), that the American Civil War was a plot against the United States of America by the Vatican, and that the Vatican was behind the Confederate cause, the death of President Lincoln and that Lincoln's assassins were faithful Roman Catholics ultimately serving Pope Pius IX"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Chiniquy

Thank GOD Lincoln was warned by Chiniquy and saw America's true enemy...which was the Vatican backed bankers...who well understand what FIAT is

Losing the arguement, change the topic..?  Another Circular Jew argument.

You desperately compare indulgences to Jew Central Bankers and Fiat fractional reserve, which never had a history in the Church for 1700 years and which was condemned.


Catholics dont control printing presses of nations or nations currencies, Jews do.
Catholics dont control any fiat presses, even in Vatican city.
Jews have for centuries.
Separation of Church and State is a Jew masonic  utopia to allow them free reign to loot, enslave, steal and murder.


'And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord?
And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.'
Acts 10:4
Quote
"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven" (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1, emphasis added). Indulgences in no way forgive sins. They deal only with punishments left after sins have been forgiven.

"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church"
(Col. 1:24).

Even though Christ’s sufferings were superabundant, Paul spoke of completing what was "lacking" in Christ’s sufferings.
'





Next
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 26, 2011, 05:20:54 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/PUV_HvF6PdA

Google:
'The shocking role of the Jews in the slave trade'- and cross reference all info for your own satisfaction.





http://www.youtube.com/v/j8UPKyDHAGY

During the Civil War era in America, Judah Benjamin played a substantial role in politics.
He was a U.S. senator, Confederate attorney general, Secretary of War, and Secretary of State.
He was accused of plotting with Davis in the Lincoln assassination and with involvement in a Canadian spy ring against the Union.


..In France, the Dreyfus Affair, far from epitomizing French anti-Judaism, demonstrates the sway of Jewish influence over the French government; the charges of treason against an obscure French artillery captain would have been of no international significance had he not been Jewish.
 Thus, it was precisely because he was Jewish that this incident attracted international prominence and was ultimately brought about the transformation of France from a Catholic Christian State into a secular state.

The secularisation of France was a seismic political event that repercussions are still felt today, the European Union is very much moulded on French secularism; it is also a significant factor in the birth of fascism and communism, as well being a contributory factor in the Russian revolution.
Therefore it a measure of Jewish influence in France that secularisation (the biggest constitutional change in French history since the 1789 revolution) arose out the protestations of Jews and Jewish sympathisers.

In France, as elsewhere in Europe, secularisation of the state was strongly advocated by prominent Jews, who wished to decapitate the influence of the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches, organisations which diametrically opposed to Judaism and the influence and socio-political integration of Jewry.
The Dreyfus Affair, rather than being the catalysis for political Judaism and secularisation was a pretext for it. Dreyfus' innocence or guilt was never significant to either side; it was a straight forward power struggle between the Catholic Church and the French army on one side and Jews and secularism on the other: Jews and secularism clearly won.

In 1893, Alfred Dreyfus, a Captain in the French artillery, assigned to the general staff in Paris, was charged with treason. He was accused of having been the author of an anonymous bordereau containing a list of secret French military documents that were scheduled for delivery to the German Embassy in Paris.
In 1894 Dreyfus was found guilty by a court-martial, reduced in rank, and transported to Devil's Island, where he was to be imprisoned for the rest of his life..." (Years later, Dreyfus was found innocent of any wrongdoing. He was the scapegoat in a larger plan.)
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 26, 2011, 05:47:33 AM
Our entire economic system is built upon a practice that was condemned as immoral by the Church for 1700+ years.


The last authoritative Magisterial statement on usury was offered in 1745.
It is the encyclical Vix Pervenit of Pope Benedict XIV.
(It was also apparently condemned in the Decretals of Gregory IX, way back in 1234)

It is the most recent statement of the Magisterium on usury and it seems to explode most of the current apologetic arguments regarding the nature of that teaching. It states:

I. The nature of the sin called usury has its proper place and origin in a loan contract. This financial contract between consenting parties demands, by its very nature, that one return to another only as much as he has received.
The sin rests on the fact that sometimes the creditor desires more than he has given. Therefore he contends some gain is owed him beyond that which he loaned, but any gain which exceeds the amount he gave is illicit and usurious.


II. One cannot condone the sin of usury by arguing that the gain is not great or excessive, but rather moderate or small; neither can it be condoned by arguing that the borrower is rich; nor even by arguing that the money borrowed is not left idle, but is spent usefully, either to increase one's fortune, to purchase new estates, or to engage in business transactions. The law governing loans consists necessarily in the equality of what is given and returned; once the equality has been established, whoever demands more than that violates the terms of the loan.'



(So much for arguments that the Magisterium now teaches usury only means "exhorbitant" interest or interest on non-profitable loans (which still wouldn't allow for most credit card usage, by the way).
Vix Pervenit, the most recent teaching specifically addresses and condemns both those arguments, as well as arguments to the effect that "times have changed and the nature of the money/the economy is different now." Rather, it states:

'We exhort you not to listen to those who say that today the issue of usury is present in name only, since gain is almost always obtained from money given to another....it is clearly invalid to suggest, on the grounds that some gain is usually received from money lent out, that the issue of usury is irrelevant in our times.'




St. Thomas Aquinas lays this out in his Summa Theologica

"It would seem that it is not lawful to borrow money under a condition of usury. For the Apostle says (Romans 1:32) that they "are worthy of death . . . not only they that do" these sins, "but they also that consent to them that do them." Now he that borrows money under a condition of usury consents in the sin of the usurer, and gives him an occasion of sin. Therefore he sins also."



Canon 13 of the Second Lateran Council (1139) says:
"Furthermore we condemn that practice accounted despicable and blame worthy by divine and human laws, denounced by Scripture in the Old and New Testaments, namely, the ferocious greed of usurers; and we sever them from every comfort of the Church, forbidding any archbishop or bishop, or an abbot of any order whatever or anyone in clerical orders, to dare to receive usurers, unless they do so with extreme caution; but let them be held infamous throughout their whole lives and, unless they repent, be deprived of a Christian burial."


Session X of the Fifth Lateran Council (1515) gave its exact meaning:
"For that is the real meaning of usury: when, from its use, a thing which produces nothing is applied to the acquiring of gain and profit without any work, any expense or any risk."


So too, Pope Benedict XIV in his encyclical Vix Pervenit, says:
"The nature of the sin called usury has its proper place and origin in a loan contract [mutuum]. This financial contract between consenting parties demands, by its very nature, that one return to another only as much as he has received.
The sin rests on the fact that sometimes the creditor desires more than he has given. Therefore he contends some gain is owed him beyond that which he loaned, but any gain which exceeds the amount he gave is illicit and usurious."
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: jacob gold on April 26, 2011, 10:14:19 AM
Jews were behind the civil war  .... that's what they do  ..... divide and conquer (nee' steal)
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 27, 2011, 03:53:17 AM
Losing the arguement, change the topic..?
ha ha ha...losing? Hardly...having you concede the pope was behind the destruction of america is not losing....

revealing that JOOS in the north came from catholic north and assisted catholic war crimes by the north is hardly losing...(oh and since ya'll be claiming JOOS be doing everthing its telling there were no JOOISH generals in the south)
 
and proving Lincoln himself understood the vatican was behind this civil war to destroy america is not losing or changing the topic...

Quote
Another Circular Jew argument
ha ha ha...it works...they run your church


Quote
You desperately compare indulgences to Jew Central Bankers and Fiat fractional reserve,
FIAT is fiat...church declares value based on false claims...just like the vatican FED...

Quote
Catholics dont control printing presses of nations or nations currencies, Jews do.
the pope is ruler of the world right?

Quote
Catholics dont control any fiat presses, even in Vatican city.
Jews have for centuries.
besides coinage and stamps the currency of the church is absolution...

Quote
Separation of Church and State is a Jew masonic utopia to allow them free reign to loot, enslave, steal and murder.
as if the church needed any help with that...

Quote
'And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord?
And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.'
Acts 10:4

and? and when you read verse 2 you see he gave his alms generously TO THE PEOPLE  not TO THE CHURCH?
Indulgences are given to the church...not the people
and about the evil practice of FIAT
here's what Peter clearly says...
Acts 8:18-20
18. Now when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19. saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.''
20. But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!"

Mercy is a gift...and not any amount of money can purchase absolution from the penalty and punishment of sin...

as if you can bribe God...
the church easily but not GOD..

we can only forgive sins not absolve them as if they never occured ONLY God can do that...

if you do the crime only God can reduce the time...

sin has its own consequences...

Quote
"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven" (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1, emphasis added). Indulgences in no way forgive sins. They deal only with punishments left after sins have been forgiven.

I understand you can reduce your punishment by actually reading the bible for more than half an hour...ha ha ha...

again, mercy can not be bought...Christ' mercy is a gift to those who believe..kinda like Sabbath...

Quote
"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church" (Col. 1:24).
that's the text you twist to support indulgences?...even Christ's death does not reduce the consequence of sin...which is death...we all must die...
but in Christ we dont the second time forever
Quote
Even though Christ’s sufferings were superabundant, Paul spoke of completing what was "lacking" in Christ’s sufferings.
and JOOS are circular? ha ha ha
Paul speaks of his temporal declaraton of faith, service, stewardship as completeing the sacrifice of Christ..NOT MONEY...wow
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 27, 2011, 04:01:49 AM
Our entire economic system is built upon a practice that was condemned as immoral by the Church for 1700+ years.

Usury is forbidden in the Old Testament...and?

So the church sold mercy and other deceptions....and made countless wealth

going on crusades was one of the best indulgences...

the participating individual did penance and the church got loot...a real win win...

kinda like the vatican FED...
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 28, 2011, 02:54:52 PM
Usury is forbidden in the Old Testament...and?
Not for Goyim, Jews also trafficked in money, money lending and changing.

So the church sold mercy and other deceptions....and made countless wealth
The Church required no more than 10% of a tithe, and with no inflation to reduce wages or earnings.

A Far cry from the 33% to the Jewish Fed Reserve and other blance of 20% taxes, from death to sales. + Inflation!


going on crusades was one of the best indulgences...
Fighting Saracen Muslims who encroached on our Holy Sites and sold Christians as Slaves.
The Word Slave comes From SLAV..White Europeans trafficked by Jews and Muslims.


the participating individual did penance and the church got loot...a real win win...
Penance was given after confession and was not monetary.
Quote
Each good action of the just man possesses a double value: that of merit and that of satisfaction, or expiation. Merit is personal, and therefore it cannot be transferred; but satisfaction can be applied to others, as St. Paul writes to the Colossians (1:24) of his own works:
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the Church."

The satisfaction, usually called the "penance", imposed by the confessor when he gives absolution is an integral part of the Sacrament of Penance; an indulgence is extra-sacramental; it presupposes the effects obtained by confession, contrition, and sacramental satisfaction.
It differs also from the penitential works undertaken of his own accord by the repentant sinner — prayer, fasting, alms-giving — in that these are personal and get their value from the merit of him who performs them, whereas an indulgence places at the penitent's disposal the merits of Christ and of the saints, which form the 'treasury' of the Church.
 


kinda like the vatican FED...
The Vatican is not, now nor has not been ever a Central Bank, not a place where Usury or Fractional Reserve Fiat Currency is used or practiced.
Thems be Jews.


Another circular Jew argument that has nothing to do with the Jews behind the Civil War.
Typical
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 28, 2011, 03:03:02 PM
ha ha ha...losing? Hardly...having you concede the pope was behind the destruction of america is not losing....

Last I checked all Popes have been Anti Abortion, a Billion Industry in the West Except for the few Catholic Nations left which still value life..Like Ireland, Spain, Poland, Portugal, Argentina et al

Last I checked, Popes were against the Jews War, Communism, Slavery, the Pill, Modernism, Feminsm and the other Jew 'Isms'.

And Im happy to know that the Pope sided with the South in the Civil War, which had nothing to do with Slavery and Abolition, but with States Rights and the Constitution which was being attacked. 
Not to mention against a Central Bank.


You say Pope and Vatican, I say Jews.

If the Pope and Vatican were ruling America, Abortion would be illegal, Usury banned, and Jews back to ghettos,  separated by Water or a moat.

Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 29, 2011, 03:22:33 PM
And Im happy to know that the Pope sided with the South in the Civil War, which had nothing to do with Slavery and Abolition, but with States Rights and the Constitution which was being attacked.

Of course you are, silly man..

My point to this thread was to remind that it wasn't merely JOO JOO JOO who was behind the destruction of america but the vatican...

just to recap and remind

"In 1855, he (Charles Chiniquy)was sued by a prominent Catholic layman named Peter Spink in Kankakee, Illinois. After the fall court term, Spink applied for a change of venue to the court in Urbana. Abraham Lincoln was then hired by Chiniquy to defend him. The spring court action in Urbana was the highest profile libel suit in Lincoln’s career. [2]
...
Chiniquy claimed that he was falsely accused by his superiors (and that Abraham Lincoln had come to his rescue), that the American Civil War was a plot against the United States of America by the Vatican, and that the Vatican was behind the Confederate cause, the death of President Lincoln and that Lincoln's assassins were faithful Roman Catholics ultimately serving Pope Pius IX"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Chiniquy

Yup Lincoln was well warned of the Pope's plotting...

Of course you would be happy with it Walt...united with Mexico with an Austrian emperor, who knows how grand the church would have become

just imagine how much more wealth she would outwardly possess...

Quote
Not to mention against a Central Bank.
Ha ha ha...its true had they succeeded with splitting america in two there would be no need for the Vatican Fed

relax Walt your  catholic destruction of america is happening...just taking a little longer...and still with vatican FIAT...declaring one world order...one catholic universal
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 29, 2011, 06:39:09 PM
Of course you are, silly man..

You must have really been insulted when I called you a silly person, because you have used that adjective now for over 3 pages. 
Its wearing out, like the rest of your posts, Mr. 1 note Johnie.


My point to this thread was to remind that it wasn't merely JOO JOO JOO who was behind the destruction of america but the vatican...

Right, the same people that are protesting Helen Thomas and got her fired for discussing Israel, Got Professor Finklestein Fired, Put Edgar Steele in Prison, call Ron Paul an Auntie Semite or any that dare speak out against Israel..
Thanks


just imagine how much more wealth she would outwardly possess...
 Ha ha ha...its true had they succeeded with splitting america in two there would be no need for the Vatican Fed

Just like it was the Vatican that cried out CRUCIFY HIM, HIS BLOOD BE UPON US AND OUR CHILDREN, at Christ's Crucifixion.
Rome backed the South, in your own words, they did not split America in 2.


relax Walt your  catholic destruction of america is happening...just taking a little longer...and still with vatican FIAT...declaring one world order...one catholic universal
The Order you speak of is the Jew Zion World Order. 
Nothing Catholic about, as it brings on the reign of the Anti Christ and Armageddon, you fool.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 29, 2011, 07:02:25 PM
Last I checked, there is NO Vatican Papal Food Tax in the world.

There IS However, a KOSHER Food TAX, in the Hundreds of Billions, on 8000+ food items and non food items alike.


Yep, The Vatican is definately running the world. 
Thanks Moishe, I mean Clefty.


http://www.youtube.com/v/-XbMmmKjM_s
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 29, 2011, 08:37:32 PM
You must have really been insulted when I called you a silly person...Its wearing out, like the rest of your posts, Mr. 1 note Johnie.
what's wearing out and insultive is your claim

that the church protected europe from JOOS...

Sicut Judaeis (the "Constitution for the Jews") was a papal bull setting out the official position of the papacy regarding the treatment of Jews.

The first bull was issued in about 1120 by Calixtus II and was intended to protect Jews who suffered during the First Crusade, during which over five thousand Jews were slaughtered in Europe. The words "Sicut Judaeis" ("and thus to the Jews") were first used by Pope Gregory I (590-604) in a letter addressed to the Bishop of Naples. Even then the Pope emphasized that Jews were entitled to "enjoy their lawful liberty."[1]

The bull was reaffirmed by many popes including Alexander III, Celestine III (1191-1198), Innocent III (1199), Honorius III (1216), Gregory IX (1235), Innocent IV (1246), Alexander IV (1255), Urban IV (1262), Gregory X (1272 & 1274), Nicholas III, Martin IV (1281), Honorius IV (1285-1287), Nicholas IV (1288-92), Clement VI (1348), Urban V (1365), Boniface IX (1389), Martin V (1422), and Nicholas V (1447).[2]

The bull forbade, besides other things, Christians from coercing Jews to convert, or to harm them, or to take their property, or to disturb the celebration of their festivals, or to interfere with their cemeteries, on pain of excommunication.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicut_Judaeis

SO its the JOOS...thanks to your church which brought this parasite into europe and then the rest of the world...and protected it...

and then gave JOOS the only right to handle the money...that however was smart so that when the people were extorted well its the JOOS...not the church who brought them into europe and protected them....

Quote
The Order you speak of is the Jew Zion World Order. 
Nothing Catholic about, as it brings on the reign of the Anti Christ and Armageddon, you fool.
yes its the JOOS...

and catholics blaming JOOS...when and where have I heard this before?

You should have let the peasants clean them out of europe but you didnt....

your white washing of roman catholicism is weak...your attempts to distance yourself from JOOsuits and this "anti pope" are understandable....

"and America was weary of war in 1867.  To the regret of the United States’ political leaders in the post-Civil War era, the most severe action they could take against the Jesuits was breaking all diplomatic ties with the Vatican"

http://homageofreason.blogspot.com/2010/11/brian-david-andersen-warns-american.html

anti pope or not its all catholic and a vatican FED...

just because you dont want to call jp2 "blessed" does in NO WAY absolve the catholic church...
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 30, 2011, 05:26:09 AM
what's wearing out and insultive is your claim

that the church protected europe from JOOS...

Sicut Judaeis (the "Constitution for the Jews") was a papal bull setting out the official position of the papacy regarding the treatment of Jews.

The first bull was issued in about 1120 by Calixtus II and was intended to protect Jews who suffered during the First Crusade, during which over five thousand Jews were slaughtered in Europe. The words "Sicut Judaeis" ("and thus to the Jews") were first used by Pope Gregory I (590-604) in a letter addressed to the Bishop of Naples. Even then the Pope emphasized that Jews were entitled to "enjoy their lawful liberty."[1]

The bull was reaffirmed by many popes including Alexander III, Celestine III (1191-1198), Innocent III (1199), Honorius III (1216), Gregory IX (1235), Innocent IV (1246), Alexander IV (1255), Urban IV (1262), Gregory X (1272 & 1274), Nicholas III, Martin IV (1281), Honorius IV (1285-1287), Nicholas IV (1288-92), Clement VI (1348), Urban V (1365), Boniface IX (1389), Martin V (1422), and Nicholas V (1447).[2]

The bull forbade, besides other things, Christians from coercing Jews to convert, or to harm them, or to take their property, or to disturb the celebration of their festivals, or to interfere with their cemeteries, on pain of excommunication.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicut_Judaeis

SO its the JOOS...thanks to your church which brought this parasite into europe and then the rest of the world...and protected it...

and then gave JOOS the only right to handle the money...that however was smart so that when the people were extorted well its the JOOS...not the church who brought them into europe and protected them....
 yes its the JOOS...

and catholics blaming JOOS...when and where have I heard this before?

You should have let the peasants clean them out of europe but you didnt....

your white washing of roman catholicism is weak...your attempts to distance yourself from JOOsuits and this "anti pope" are understandable....

"and America was weary of war in 1867.  To the regret of the United States’ political leaders in the post-Civil War era, the most severe action they could take against the Jesuits was breaking all diplomatic ties with the Vatican"

http://homageofreason.blogspot.com/2010/11/brian-david-andersen-warns-american.html

anti pope or not its all catholic and a vatican FED...

just because you dont want to call jp2 "blessed" does in NO WAY absolve the catholic church...

Moron,

There have been over 270 Popes, including 40 Anti Popes.
Their positions on many political issues varied, and some were more strict, or less depending.

On Jews, there has been great consistency, although hatred via Racism, generally was not espoused, nor was killing, which would not be Godly in any way.

So they were scattered, rather than culled.  Not to convert them as they would subvert Christianity.  Do not engage with them, work for them, get treate dby them, they couldnt educate, practice law or much else.

The Church has been consistent in that.
And Expulsions from over 108 Catholic Nation States evidence that point.

The peasants DID clean them out of Europe, they went to England or to the Middle East.

Youve not made a cogent point yet.
Youve yet to counter the $200 Billion Dollar/year KOSHER Tax America, Europe and Canada pay for its food.
But No Catholic Tax.



Clefty, youre a Jew Shill Propogandist and a 1 note Johny.

(http://joeyfaulk.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/treble-clef.jpg)
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 30, 2011, 06:33:41 AM
and a 1 note Johny.

this, my dear Walt,

(http://joeyfaulk.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/treble-clef.jpg)

is NOT a note...ha ha ha...and I am a moron?

you are entertaining

happy sabbath...

relax, sabbath aint JOOISH


Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 30, 2011, 08:36:03 AM
this, my dear Walt,

(http://joeyfaulk.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/treble-clef.jpg)

is NOT a note...ha ha ha...and I am a moron?

you are entertaining

happy sabbath...

relax, sabbath aint JOOISH

Its a treble cleff, but its the closest and most recognizeable symbol for a note.

I play music, I dont read it.

So if you insist....

(http://letsplayrecorder.com/E-note.gif)


And Happy Passover to you.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on April 30, 2011, 12:55:07 PM
Its a treble cleff, but its the closest and most recognizeable symbol for a note.
maybe you meant triple clefty cuz my argument is 3X as strong as yours...ha ha ha....

and it doesnt symbolize a note...it symbolizes how the note is played...at what pitch...sorry I am like that...

Quote
I play music, I dont read it.
you posted E I thought we established I was B..the seventh note...

but you insisted F...

Quote
And Happy Passover to you.
WHAT AGAIN?!!!....where's my beanie!!!....oh wait, you were kidding

you catholics and calendars...first gregory advances it 10 days to be less jooish

 and now you push it back...to be more jooish?  :)

Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 30, 2011, 01:08:06 PM
maybe you meant triple clefty cuz my argument is 3X as strong as yours...ha ha ha....
Youve not yet made an argument.  Just rambling and  incoherent drooling nonsense, and Im being kind.


and it doesnt symbolize a note...it symbolizes how the note is played...at what pitch...sorry I am like that...
 you posted E I thought we established I was B..the seventh note...
A Clef symbolizes Music, and your music is 1 note,  and same pitch.  Its tedious to read for all here.


you catholics and calendars...first gregory advances it 10 days to be less jooish
Thank Goodness, as his calendar was actually more accurate than the previous still used by the Greek Orthodox.
Greeks took in Jews when they were expelled from Spain by Catholics, not sure if that had anything to do with them keeping the calendar or not.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on April 30, 2011, 03:55:30 PM
you posted E I thought we established I was B..the seventh note...


The E was for embarrassment.
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: clefty on May 01, 2011, 07:12:16 AM

The E was for embarrassment.

ha ha ha...your embarrassment for not knowing what a note was?

or are you embarrassed for  trying to claim the church defended europe from JOOS....when it actually protected JOOS and spread them around...

or are you embarrassed that it wasnt just JOOS that sought to destroy america during the civil war...but catholics eager for a world catholic state

or because sabbath was changed not in the bible as you claim but by the church which is what she claims...

so now you are anti catholic for claiming its in the bible...which was written long before your church split from the original church....

or are you embarrassed that with all that self exalted authority and power your church lost to JOOS who are making JP2 saint today..

you should be embarrassed....
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: thomaspain on May 01, 2011, 03:13:19 PM

   What Clefty and Walt Disney are engaged in is the Jewish sport of HASBARA. The game is to slowly choke a forum to ineffectiveness. Points are gained by how long the death can be prolonged. The moves are to discreetly ping-pong inanities back and forth to discourage visitors from taking the forum seriously. It is most brilliantly performed by using longstanding shills who perform in ways that are not different from their everyday postings. It comes to a head when they are ordered to commit the murder and put the forum out of its misery. It is somewhat of a waste when members of longstanding have to sacrifice their seniority and move on to another victim, and continue their charade on another forum. But their religious oaths demand that of them. If you travel to different forums of this type you will recognize their writing characteristics under different handles. They like to make it worth their whiles and keep many irons in the fire. Only the most militant sayanims take the time to engage in this sport. Their motivation is garbled and hard to understand. Their actions do not contribute to the well-being of the average Jew, but do further the causes of the Jewish aristocracy/bankers. They are sometimes motivated by actions against them in their lives that they feel were anti-semitic. They are incapable of taking notice that the Jewish exclusionary attitudes and petty actions against the whites are the cause. Also most often their suffering is caused by the same factors which affect the whites.


ARE ASHKENAZI JEWS
WHITE or SEMITE?
Title: - Civil War's Causes: Historians Largely United on Slavery, But Public Divided
Post by: WaltDisney on May 02, 2011, 08:13:14 PM
   What Clefty and Walt Disney are engaged in is the Jewish sport of HASBARA. The game is to slowly choke a forum to ineffectiveness. Points are gained by how long the death can be prolonged. The moves are to discreetly ping-pong inanities back and forth to discourage visitors from taking the forum seriously.
It is most brilliantly performed by using longstanding shills who perform in ways that are not different from their everyday postings. It comes to a head when they are ordered to commit the murder and put the forum out of its misery. It is somewhat of a waste when members of longstanding have to sacrifice their seniority and move on to another victim, and continue their charade on another forum. But their religious oaths demand that of them. If you travel to different forums of this type you will recognize their writing characteristics under different handles. They like to make it worth their whiles and keep many irons in the fire. Only the most militant sayanims take the time to engage in this sport. Their motivation is garbled and hard to understand. Their actions do not contribute to the well-being of the average Jew, but do further the causes of the Jewish aristocracy/bankers. They are sometimes motivated by actions against them in their lives that they feel were anti-semitic. They are incapable of taking notice that the Jewish exclusionary attitudes and petty actions against the whites are the cause. Also most often their suffering is caused by the same factors which affect the whites.


ARE ASHKENAZI JEWS
WHITE or SEMITE?

TP,
I dont visit other political forums. At least, not in years.
And rarely on religious issues.
Im not engaging in anything, other than those attacking the truth with lies and countering it with what I believe to be factual historical analysis.


I believe Clefty is a troublemaker, a 1 note Johnny, always parroting the same Sabbath nonsense and Anti Church bias.
I would like him to go away, the forum was much more focused before his nonsense.
I have reported his threads and hijacks to mods.  So much for hasbara or whatever you call it.
If you have a problem with the way I post or content, please call me out on it.

I am a traditional Catholic, and have been one for well over 10 years.
I denounce Vatican 2, all of its reforms and teachings. 

My views might not be popular, especially with more modernist but conservative Catholics, but I believe that my views are factually based, and approach is cynical in dealing with the Vatican 2 Church.   
I am also a critic at times, because I love the Church.

I believe that your post is utter nonsense, if directed at me, even remotely. 
I rarely see you or others defend anything or call out BS. So as far as Im concerned, youre another lukewarm Catholic in name only.


To evidence my point, here is a new thread, just started, and Clefty hijacking it 3 times with the same Sabbath nonsense.  I post, he responds with his usual.
Hasbara my crucifix.
http://www.freedomportal.net/index.php?topic=20822.0