Author Topic: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text  (Read 2103 times)

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Offline jola

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2008, 11:44:47 PM »
The Jews are above reproach.  Being a Polak I get the full measure of their hatred.  You know, pogroms, killing Jews for sport, collaboration with the Nazis, Polish concentration camps, antisemitism sucked from mother's breast, etc.  It's off topic , I know, so I won't go into it, but honesty is not something I would atribute to the Jews.  Falsyfying ancient and recent history is their specialty though.

Offline sherianne

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2008, 12:20:47 AM »
Hi sushigirl;
You do not have to be religious to be a friend of Christ.
Atheists are vitally a part creation, the thought through which we have our being, in many ways.
And it can happen that people are religious and do God's work, and do not even realize.

Random House:
(existed before my birth - I find it very helpful in understanding proper and improper word usage)

religious - adj. 1. of, pertaining to or concerned with religion

religion - n. 1. concern over what exists beyond the physical world, differentiated from philosophy in that it operates through faith or intuition rather than reason, and generally including the existence of a single being, a group of beings, an eternal principle, or a transcendent spiritual entity, that has created the world, that governs it, that controls its destinies, or that intervenes occasionally in the natural course of its history, as well as the idea that ritual, prayer, spiritual exercises, certain principles of everyday conduct, etc., are expedient, due, or spiritually rewarding, or arise naturally out of an inner need, as a human response to a belief in such a being, principle, etc.



(Archaeologists report)
"finding oldest Hebrew text"

...is one thing, but was it plagiarism?

A whole language?
Assyrian? Aramaic? Phoenician? Greek?

O tu illustrata...

Biblical Israel, the physical Evidence
by Matt Giwer, © 2005

http://www.giwersworld.org/ancient-history/index.phtml

"only the handful of items previously discussed were found"
http://www.giwersworld.org/ancient-history/real-evidence.html

Showing Phoenician and Hebrew have the same alphabet with one slight difference.
http://www.giwersworld.org/ancient-history/phoenician/hebrew-phoenician-compare.html

Giving examples of Hebrew inscriptions to show they use Phoenician.
http://www.giwersworld.org/ancient-history/inscriptions/hebrew-inscriptions.html

Found via:
The real physical evidence [LF]


Now how am I supposed to flag FerricWebcaesar?
With LF diaspora splattered all over the web he could be anywhere!
If only I could archive the author with the post...

Great posts as always - please continue flagging me!

P.S. - my papyrus plants have babies and some are 5 ft. tall now and seeds from Kyrie, my 10 ft. Sunflower are germinating!
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 12:47:16 AM by sherianne »

Offline jola

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2008, 01:03:16 AM »
"Now how am I supposed to flag FerricWebcaesar?"

He posted on this thread.  Iron Webmaster.

Offline clayman

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2008, 01:29:42 AM »
Several words, including "judge," "slave" and "king," could be identified ...

... within a statement that will eventually read "Judge not, slave, your king is a Jew," thereby predicating this, the most recent Israeli effort to steal land, upon yet another "archaeological" premise.   

Offline sherianne

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2008, 01:29:57 AM »
Thanks jola!
I saw that name and wondered who it was.
My comment was intended mainly as humor however I would like to encourage him to organize all that info into one page if possible which I think he mentions at that site he hopes to do at some point. I have enjoyed and saved many of his articles over the years.
It is quite an interesting analysis and especially for a subject of such great temporal context and significance.

...flagging Iron Webmaster - see above...
It is good to know you too are here. And ~ Thankyou!


(i am off to dreap now)

Offline grizzle

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2008, 02:44:36 AM »
LF diaspora

LOL! Nice way to put it. The Lost Tribes of Liberty Forum.
"Yes I know, science fiction...but actually, science fact." - Vincent Price in Scream and Scream Again

Offline bpocatch

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2008, 04:44:10 AM »
Hey Jola  :)

Where is Polack!

Polack is bad for the Jews!

Offline wag

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2008, 05:03:44 AM »
Physical evidence is anti-semitic.  So is truth.  Take George Soros.  He enriched himself by destroying the economies of several Asian nations through currency market manipulation.  Jews call this philanthropy. 
Nobody gets paid to tell the truth.

Offline wag

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2008, 05:13:40 AM »
Yhids like to call themselves hebes.
Nobody gets paid to tell the truth.

Offline Sue

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2008, 07:51:43 AM »
Thank you for posting this article, what a great find, exposing yet another lie.
And so it goes, on and on.
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline Sue

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2008, 09:00:47 AM »
Quote
You do not have to be religious to be a friend of Christ.
Atheists are vitally a part creation, the thought through which we have our being, in many ways.
And it can happen that people are religious and do God's work, and do not even realize.

Hello sweet Sherianne!

Not being religious does not mean that I cannot not be spiritual, appreciating the beauty of nature
to the fullest.

Quote
Now how am I supposed to flag FerricWebcaesar?
With LF diaspora splattered all over the web he could be anywhere!
If only I could archive the author with the post...

Great posts as always - please continue flagging me!

Well you are in luck my friend. I was able to contact FW, the Iron Webmaster and he appeared!!!
He is the only one -- among other interesting contributors in LF's past-- who of has studied this
subject in-depth. Enjoy! I wonder where and how 'Judson' is? I so often followed their exchanges. 
 
Quote
P.S. - my papyrus plants have babies and some are 5 ft. tall now and seeds from Kyrie, my
10 ft. Sunflower are germinating!

For you!
  Did I ever tell you that I stitched a beautiful Sunflower? It turned out
so lovely, I had it framed. I will take a picture of it and try to upload it one of these days. I miss
my sunflowers, I have no place to plant any.


"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline Sue

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2008, 09:05:42 AM »
Several words, including "judge," "slave" and "king," could be identified ...

... within a statement that will eventually read "Judge not, slave, your king is a Jew," thereby predicating this, the most recent Israeli effort to steal land, upon yet another "archaeological" premise.   

Exactly! My thoughts entirely.
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline Sue

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2008, 09:18:26 AM »
Physical evidence is anti-semitic.  So is truth.  Take George Soros.  He enriched himself by destroying the economies of several Asian nations through currency market manipulation.  Jews call this philanthropy

Philanthropy: As in my pocket?  ???

The effort or inclination to increase the well-being of humankind, as by charitable
aid or donations.
 
Love of humankind in general.
 
Something, such as an activity or institution, intended to promote human welfare.

"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline wag

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Nobody gets paid to tell the truth.

Offline dean_saor

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2008, 10:21:34 AM »
I suppose there's some oneupmanship going on here as well. They want to be the originators of the Semitic script, I suppose, rather than admit that they lifted it off the Phoenicians (i.e. proto-Palestinians) - but actually the Greek alphabet is an adaptation of Phoenician script, and Homer (Homiros) pre-dated this "earliest hebrew text" by some time.

According to Wikipedia (it looks reasonably accurate to me):

"The date of Homer's existence was controversial in antiquity and is no less so today. Herodotus said that Homer lived 400 years before his own time, which would place him at around 850 BC;[2] but other ancient sources gave dates much closer to the supposed time of the Trojan War.[3] For modern scholarship, "the date of Homer" refers to the date of the poems' conception as much as to the lifetime of an individual. The scholarly consensus is that "the Iliad and the Odyssey date from the extreme end of the 9th century BC or from the 8th, the Iliad being anterior to the Odyssey, perhaps by some decades",[4] i.e., somewhat earlier than Hesiod,[5] and that the Iliad is the oldest work of western literature. Over the past few decades, some scholars have argued for a 7th-century date. Those who believe that the Homeric poems developed gradually over a long period of time, however, generally give a later date for the poems: according to Nagy, they only became fixed texts in the 6th century.[6]"

Then there's Himyaritic (from the Yemen), which many Orientalists used to reckon to have provided the earliest examples of Semitic writing:

"The Himyarite language was a South Semitic tongue spoken in the south-western Arabian peninsula until the 10th century. Evidence of ancient culture and fragments of South Arabic inscriptions judged to be Himyaritic have been found dating from before 700 BC" (Wikipedia again)

Can't have the Arabs beating the (self-) Chosen to the line.  ;)
Cha do dhùin doras nach d'fhosgail doras eile;
No door shut but another door opened

Offline Sue

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2008, 10:47:21 AM »


Historical Papyrus

 
Link
by Jimmy Dunn
 


Our English word "paper", is derived from the word "papyrus", an Egyptian word that originally meant "that which  belongs to the house" (the bureaucracy of ancient Egypt). At about the same time as the ancient Egyptians moved from prehistory to history by developing a written language, they discovered the need for a medium other than stone to transcribe upon. They found this in their papyrus plant, a triangular reed which symbolized ancient lower Egypt.  It was light, strong, thin, durable and easy to carry, and for thousands of years, there was nothing better for the purpose of writing.

The earliest extant documented papyrus comes from Egypt's 1st Dynasty, but we believe it may have been used as early as 4,000 BC. It's use continued until about the 11th century AD.  Besides its use for producing a medium for writing purposes, papyrus was also used for mattresses on beds, for building chairs, tables, and other furniture as well as for mats, baskets, boxes, sandals, utensils, rope and boats. Furthermore, the papyrus root was a source of food, medicine and perfume.

Papyrus was, and continues today to be made from the papyrus reed that grows in freshwater marshes along the river Nile, though today this growth is rare and controlled. Technically, it is Cyperus papyrus, a part of the sedge family. The plant grows to a height of about ten feet. After harvesting, the outer fibers are peeled away and the core of the stalk and sliced into very thin strips that are as broad as possible. The best of these strips, from the perspective of quality, comes from the center. Progressively, the quality of the papyrus strips decline as the strips are taken further from the center of the yellowish-white pith.

These strips are next soaked in water to remove the sugar content. Next, the strips are pounded and the water drained away, after which they are placed side by side, overlapping slightly. A second set of strips are placed at right angles to the first, again overlapping slightly. Next, this raw papyrus sheet is pounded once again, and left under a heavy weight (usually a stone slab) to dry for approximately six days. The remaining sugar within this concoction seals the strips together. Finally, after drying the surface of the sheet is polished to a smooth finish by rubbing (for example, with a shell or a piece of smooth ivory). Though during various periods of Egyptian history, this process could be slightly different, some papyrus continues to be made in a similar manner even today, for artistic purposes. For example, Pliny, during the Greek period, describes the process somewhat differently and included information on the various grades of Papyrus: (see picture link above)

For practical purposes, the papyrus was limited to a standard size running 47 cm in length at the most (29-33 cm on the average), and 22 cm in width, though by no means was this always so, particularly over Egypt's long history. For longer documents, these pages were joined to create a papyrus roll (scroll). In fact, papyrus sheets were usually not sold individually, but in rolls (of about 20 sheets), with the fibers running in the same direction, except for the end sheets, which were reversed in order to add stringth.

 
However, in later periods, we also find papyrus books, called codex, which finally triumphed over the roll.

Just like there are many different kinds and qualities of paper today, the same was true for papyrus. Each type was used for a different purpose. Very cheaply made coarse papyrus was used by merchants to wrap items. The finest and most expensive varieties were reserved for religious or literary works. Quality depended upon a number of factors. Where the papyrus plants were grown, the age of the plants, the season when they were harvested, and most importantly, the layer of pith used in manufacture were all factors that affected the quality of the finished product. The finest papyrus was made using the innermost pith layers and was said to have come from the Delta region.

A typical roll was usually constructed of papyrus sheets of varying quality. The best sheets would be used for its ends, since they received the most wear and tear, and lesser quality sheets for its inner sections. To add additional strength and help prevent fraying, at the end margins, a strip of papyrus would be glued along the ends of the roll. In some cases, each end of the scroll would be wound around a stick (called an umbicus) which had attached cords to keep the roll from unraveling.

The various varieties and sizes of papyrus were often named in honor of emperors or officials. This information, particularly during the Roman and Byzantine periods, was written on the first sheet of a roll and was called a protocol. Additionally, the protocol often included the date and place of manufacture of the papyrus. Generally, the protocol would be cut off before using the roll. However, for legal documents, this practice was forbidden by the Laws of Justinian. The practice of adding a protocol to a finished papyrus roll continued into Islamic times. Usually, the ancient Egyptians and others only wrote on one side of the papyrus, with the sheet oriented so that the fibers ran horizontally (recto). Rarely was there actually graphics applied to papyrus, particularly outside ancient religious matter.

Egyptian rulers realizing the importance of Papyrus, made its production a state monopoly, and guarded the secret of Papyrus jealously. Soon, Egyptians were even exporting their papyrus "paper", though outside of Egypt, not much of it has survived. This is due to the climate of Egypt and a few parts of Mesopotamia, where the dry climate is conducive to such preservation. However, Papyri have also been found in Asia and Europe. Few fragments of papyri from the classic period have been found in Greece, though dozens of drawings of rolls and papyri appear on vases of the same period.

Of course, there was a concentration of papyrus in the debris of ancient towns and the necropolises of Egypt. In the external history of the discoveries the most noteworthy feature is that so many of the papyri have been dug up with the spade from Egyptian rubbish-heaps. The fact that so many of the papryi are found among the dust-heaps of ancient cities is a valuable indication of their general significance. The multitude of papyri from the Fayoum and a few other locations, do not, as was at first supposed, but simply the everyday trash of ancient civilization. 

Furthermore, in Egypt, papyrus was recycled in the form of mummy cartonnage. In the mummification process, the ancient Egyptians first prepared the corpses and wrapped them in linen. Then they covered the deceased with pieces of cartonnage covered with plaster and painted in bright colors. This cartonnage, at least in certain periods of Egyptian history, consisted of several layers of papyrus usually discarded by administrative offices.

Actually, the largest percentage of papyrus that has survived was written during the Greco-Roman Period of Egyptian history and afterwards, from about the late fourth century BC until the middle of the seventh century AD. Most of this text is written in Greek. After the conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great, almost all administration of Egypt was largely conducted in Greek, and this remained so even after the Romans took control of Egypt. In fact, Greek continued to be used for this administrative purposes even after the Arab conquest in 642 AD. However, there also remains considerable text written in Coptic, Latin and Arabic on papyrus as well as some Hieratic and more commonly, Demotic Egyptian.

However, a large body of papyrus documentation exits on administrative matters such as official tax accounts, private documents from tax receipts to letters, court documents and others. In fact, these texts illustrate life in ancient Egypt under Greek and Roman rule in all its aspects, and the study of this body of information is called papyrology. The first recorded purchase of papyri by European visitors to Egypt was in 1778.
  In that year a nameless dealer in antiquities bought from some peasants a papyrus roll of documents from the year 191 - 192 AD., and looked on while they set fire to fifty or so others simply to enjoy the aromatic smoke that was produced. Since that date an enormous quantity of inscribed papyri in all possible languages, of ages varying from a thousand to nearly five thousand years, have been recovered from the magic soil of the ancient seats of civilization in the Nile Valley. From about 1820 to 1840 the museums of Europe acquired quite a respectable number of papyri from Memphis and Letopolis in Middle Egypt, and from This, Panopolis, Thebes (modern Luxor), Hermonthis, Elephantine, and Syene (Aswan) in Upper Egypt. Not many scholars took any notice of them at first, and only a very few read and profited by them.

The next decisive event, apart from isolated finds, was the discovery of papyri in the province of El-Fayoum (Middle Egypt) in 1877. To the north of the capital, Medinet el-Fayoum, lay a number of mounds of rubbish and debris, marking the site of the ancient "City of Crocodiles," afterwards called "The City of the Arsinoïtes," and these now yielded up hundreds and enormous quantity of inscribed papyri in all possible languages, of ages varying from a thousand to nearly five thousand years, have been recovered from the magic soil of the ancient seats of civilization in the Nile Valley. From about 1820 to 1840 the museums of Europe acquired quite a respectable number of papyri from Memphis and Letopolis in Middle Egypt, and from This, Panopolis, Thebes (modern Luxor), Hermonthis, Elephantine, and Syene (Aswan) in Upper Egypt. Not many scholars took any notice of them at first, and only a very few read and profited by them.

The next decisive event, apart from isolated finds, was the discovery of papyri in the province of El-Fayoum (Middle Egypt) in 1877. To the north of the capital, Medinet el-Fayoum, lay a number of mounds of rubbish and debris, marking the site of the ancient "City of Crocodiles," afterwards called "The City of the Arsinoïtes," and these now yielded up hundreds and thousands of precious sheets and scraps. Since then there has been a rapid succession of big finds, which have not ceased even yet: we are still in a period of important discoveries.

The job of the papyrologist can be considerably difficult. By far, the majority of the some 50,000 papyri published since 1788 (out of an estimated 400,000 preserved in collections around the world) are very fragmentary. Hence, the work of a papyrologist not only involves deciphering, transcribing and editing this material, but also reconstructing very complex puzzles. Most fragments of literature have come
from rolls of papyrus, which could extend up to some 35 feet in length.

For a while, papyrus actually disappeared  from the Egyptian landscape after the invention of paper. The Egyptian placed an embargo on exporting papyrus at the end of the 7th century AD led the way to parchment, and later on to 'modern' paper, the successor to the papyrus. 'Ground' paper (the predecessor of modern paper) was invented in China in the second century AD, but reached western Asia only after the Muslim conquest of Turkistan in 751 Hence, Arabs introduced a process for making pulp paper, which they learned from Chinese prisoners. Though this new paper was less durable then papyrus, it was also easier and far less expensive to make. Gradually, the Egyptians abandoned the production of {Papyrus paper and neglected the cultivation of their papyrus plantations. Eventually, papyrus itself disappeared from the Egyptian landscape.

Papyrus making was not revived until around 1969. An Egyptian scientist named Dr. Hassan Ragab reintroduced the papyrus plant to Egypt from the Sudan and started a papyrus plantation near Cairo on Jacob Island. He also had to research the method of production. Unfortunately, the ancient Egyptians left little evidence about the manufacturing process. There are no extant texts or wall paintings and archaeologists have failed to uncover any manufacturing centers. Most of our knowledge about the actual manufacturing process is derived from its description in Pliny the elder's Natural History and modern experimentation. Dr. Ragab finally figured out how it was done, and now papyrus making is back in Egypt after a very long absence.





"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline Sue

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2008, 11:01:56 AM »
It's all Soros all the time for O'Reilly. Didn't Soros push Bush to invade Iraq? Wasn't it Soros that funded Gitmo?
And I believe Soros coached Alberto Gonzales before he testified last week...George wants to buy AMERICA!
Poor Joe Lieberman...

Soros in a nutshell!
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

INRI

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2008, 11:30:56 AM »
You need to spend more time finding the 'good jews.'

Offline Sue

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2008, 12:29:53 PM »
Still looking!  ::)
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline Iron Webmaster

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2008, 04:31:44 PM »
Hi sushigirl;
You do not have to be religious to be a friend of Christ.
Atheists are vitally a part creation, the thought through which we have our being, in many ways.
And it can happen that people are religious and do God's work, and do not even realize.

Random House:
(existed before my birth - I find it very helpful in understanding proper and improper word usage)

religious - adj. 1. of, pertaining to or concerned with religion

religion - n. 1. concern over what exists beyond the physical world, differentiated from philosophy in that it operates through faith or intuition rather than reason, and generally including the existence of a single being, a group of beings, an eternal principle, or a transcendent spiritual entity, that has created the world, that governs it, that controls its destinies, or that intervenes occasionally in the natural course of its history, as well as the idea that ritual, prayer, spiritual exercises, certain principles of everyday conduct, etc., are expedient, due, or spiritually rewarding, or arise naturally out of an inner need, as a human response to a belief in such a being, principle, etc.



(Archaeologists report)
"finding oldest Hebrew text"

...is one thing, but was it plagiarism?

A whole language?
Assyrian? Aramaic? Phoenician? Greek?

O tu illustrata...

Biblical Israel, the physical Evidence
by Matt Giwer, © 2005

http://www.giwersworld.org/ancient-history/index.phtml

"only the handful of items previously discussed were found"
http://www.giwersworld.org/ancient-history/real-evidence.html

Showing Phoenician and Hebrew have the same alphabet with one slight difference.
http://www.giwersworld.org/ancient-history/phoenician/hebrew-phoenician-compare.html

Giving examples of Hebrew inscriptions to show they use Phoenician.
http://www.giwersworld.org/ancient-history/inscriptions/hebrew-inscriptions.html

Found via:
The real physical evidence [LF]


Now how am I supposed to flag FerricWebcaesar?
With LF diaspora splattered all over the web he could be anywhere!
If only I could archive the author with the post...

Great posts as always - please continue flagging me!

P.S. - my papyrus plants have babies and some are 5 ft. tall now and seeds from Kyrie, my 10 ft. Sunflower are germinating!

You can either flag me or wait until I find you which I have. What can I do for you? ;)

Now there is also [a href="http://www.giwersworld.org/bible/bibleland.html"]All is not well in bibleland[/a] putting the conclusions for those other posts into a single context.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!