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Offline Sue

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Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« on: November 13, 2008, 11:05:37 AM »




Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text




Aticle Link Here

By Ari Rabinovitch

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Archaeologists in Israel said on Thursday they had unearthed the oldest Hebrew text ever found, while excavating a fortress city overlooking a valley where the Bible says David slew Goliath.

The dig's uncovering of the past near the ancient battlefield in the Valley of Elah, now home to wineries and a satellite station, could have implications for the emotional debate over the future of Jerusalem, some 20 km (12 miles) away.

Archaeologists from the Hebrew University said they found five lines of text written in black ink on a shard of pottery dug up at a five-acre (two-hectare) site called Elah Fortress, or Khirbet Qeiyafa.

Experts have not yet been able to decipher the text fully, but carbon dating of artifacts found at the site indicates the Hebrew inscription was written about 3,000 years ago, predating the Dead Sea Scrolls by 1,000 years, the archaeologists said.

Several words, including "judge," "slave" and "king," could be identified and the experts said they hoped the text would shed light on how alphabetic scripts developed.

In a finding that could have symbolic value for Israel, the archaeologists said other items discovered at the fortress dig indicated there was most likely a strong king and central government in Jerusalem during the period scholars believe that David ruled the holy city and ancient Israel.

Modern-day Israel often cites a biblical connection through David to Jerusalem in supporting its claim, which has not won recognition internationally, to all of the city as its "eternal and indivisible capital."

Palestinians, saying biblical claims have been superseded by the long-standing Arab population in Jerusalem, want the eastern part of the city, captured by Israel in a 1967 war, to be the capital of the state they hope to establish in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

"The chronology and geography of Khirbet Qeiyafa create a unique meeting point between the mythology, history, historiography and archaeology of King David," said Yosef Garfinkel, the lead archaeologist at the fortress site.

(Editing by Giles Elgood)



"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline Rudi Jan

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2008, 11:20:45 AM »
Experts have not yet been able to decipher the text fully...

What? It's not yiddish? Why the problem deciphering the inscription if it's Hebrew?

Kinda rough trying to substantiate a history that never was...
Suspend all belief. Get the facts ~ Rudi
No one rules if no one obeys ~ Lao Tzu

Offline Sue

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2008, 12:02:01 PM »
Experts have not yet been able to decipher the text fully...

What? It's not yiddish? Why the problem deciphering the inscription if it's Hebrew?

Kinda rough trying to substantiate a history that never was...

Several words, including "judge," ''slave" and "king", could be identified and the
experts said they hoped the text would shed light on how alphabetic scripts developed.


      LOL, at least they figured out the 'important' ones!  ;D
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

INRI

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2008, 12:12:40 PM »
 :D

Any port text in a storm, I guess.

Offline grizzle

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2008, 01:02:01 PM »
There is a lot of back and forth regarding the existence (or not) of King David and his empire. Here's some of it:

http://jewfaq.blogspot.com/2005/08/king-davids-palace.html

Wednesday, August 24, 2005
King David's Palace

Israeli archaeologist Eilat Mazar has uncovered the foundation walls of an ancient and significant public building just outside the walls of the Old City in Jerusalem. She believes that she has found King David's palace, the palace that the Bible describes as being built by King Hiram of Tyre about 1,000 years Before the Christian Era (BCE). This remarkable find was announced earlier this month.

If you haven't heard about this story, don't feel guilty: Lots of people haven't heard about it. It has hardly made a blip on the mainstream press in the United States. A search of a LexisNexis news database covering hundreds of newspapers gets only 6 results for the search "King David w/10 palace" since the beginning of August. Searches for the archaeologist by various spellings of her name return the same results. I would not have known about it myself if I had not read an editorial about the discovery in the Jewish Exponent last week.

And no wonder the media doesn't want to touch this story: If this structure is what Mazar believes it to be, the potential political, historical and social ramifications of this discovery are enormous. Anti-Israel hard-liners have claimed for many years now that Jews have no historical connection to Jerusalem, that King David ruled from some other hill somewhere else; if this discovery is proved to be King David's palace, it places King David directly outside modern Jerusalem's walls. The fashionable scholarly opinion in recent years has been that King David was nothing more than an insignificant hill chieftain, that the Bible is nothing more than fiction and the stories it tells should be given no credence whatsoever; if Mazar is correct, this find shows that King David was more significant than fashionable scholars want to believe, and the Bible at the very least contains some accurate historical details.

Of course, I doubt we will never know whether Mazar is correct. There are too many people who are too emotionally committed to either believing or disbelieving it. The Palestinian Authority has already declared the find to be "worthless and groundless" without examining any of the evidence, implying without explicitly saying so that these "clandestine excavations" were fraudulent.

It is interesting, though, to compare the media's treatment of this story to their treatment of the so-called "James Ossuary" in 2002. For those who don't recall, a media frenzy ensued after it was announced that someone had found an ossuary (a box for holding bones of the deceased) inscribed with the words Ya'akov bar Yosef akhui di Yeshua, widely translated as James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus, although "Ya'akov" would perhaps be more accurately translated as "Jacob." It was widely believed that this was the first physical evidence ever found of the existence of Jesus, though some expressed skepticism because of the commonness of the names. The Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto examined the ossuary and declared it to be genuine, although some bells and whistles should have gone off because this is not the first remarkable archaelogical find the same collector had owned. The owner of the box was later arrested for antiquities forgery. Police arresting him found implements for conducting antiquities forgery as well as articles in various stages of the forging process. The Royal Ontario Museum and others continue to maintain that the box was real.

Perhaps the James ossuary fiasco has made the media a bit more gun-shy, although one has to wonder how someone could fake a massive 3000-year-old building.
"Yes I know, science fiction...but actually, science fact." - Vincent Price in Scream and Scream Again

Offline FrankDialogue

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2008, 01:27:44 PM »
Interesting in terms of linguistics and archeaology...But note:
Quote
In a finding that could have symbolic value for Israel, the archaeologists said other items discovered at the fortress dig indicated there was most likely a strong king and central government in Jerusalem during the period scholars believe that David ruled the holy city and ancient Israel.

Modern-day Israel often cites a biblical connection through David to Jerusalem in supporting its claim, which has not won recognition internationally, to all of the city as its "eternal and indivisible capital."

The present day 'Israelis' spoke Yiddish when they came over on the boat from Eastern Europe...They are not Israelites as spoken of in the Bible, and only use this reference for political expediency, in line with their Khazar heritage...But Ben Gurion and other Ashkenazim elite decided that Hebrew would be the nation language of 'Yitzrael' because this, and the usurpation of Biblical history would give them a good rationale for seizing lands that in no way belonged to them...Lands belonging to others, but 'given to THEM  by God'...Absolutely NOWHERE in the Bible does it say the land of Palestine would be a 'heritage' of the Ashkenazim/Khazars, nor does the Bible ANYWHERE  state that these lands would be the heritage of 'Jews'.

Offline Iron Webmaster

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2008, 01:47:31 PM »
If in fact it is in "hebrew" one has to ask after the problem of "deciphering" it.

This is hardly the first thing announced as "hebrew" that have turned out to be nothing of the kind.

This is also an example of prejudicing a discussion. Hebrews are found only the pack of lies, the historical fiction, we call the Old Testament. All but the thumpers agree on the 5th c. BC as the earliest possible date for the creation of the OT. So the use of the name hebrew for a language of a people in 1000BC is backdating the invention of the word by five centuries.

One might as well call it Atlantean and use that designation to argue that Atlantis really existed.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline laconas

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2008, 05:11:52 PM »
Why the 5th c BC. Why so early?

Parts of the Septuagint only go back to the 3rd c BC.
Nobody censors what they agree with

Offline Iron Webmaster

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2008, 05:44:23 PM »
>Why the 5th c BC. Why so early? Parts of the Septuagint only go back to the 3rd c BC.

I picked the date as it is the mythical return from the mythical captivity in Babylon that the biblical rear guard has adopted as the creation time. So ignoring those who believe in Noah's flood, there is no disagreement with that early date.

Thus my statement stands without a digression into when it was created. We do know the bible and the people first appear in history in the 1st c. BC with the arrival of Pompey. The Greeks made no mention of them nor did anyone else for that matter.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline wag

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2008, 05:52:22 PM »
Any Israeli archaeologolgy would be highly dubious.
Nobody gets paid to tell the truth.

Offline Iron Webmaster

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Mazar is a racist at best
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2008, 06:54:05 PM »
She fronts for a squatter movement called Elad. Her purpose it is "discover" archaeological sites where non-Jews live and get them designated as such. That restricts the access of the non-Jews to the land and occasionally gets them evicted. After the designation Jews build Jews only housing on the archaeological sites. At present this is solely a vehicle for the jewish takeover of Silwan.

What she calls David's palace is two rows of stones about ten feet apart which she claims are the walls of the palace. There is nothing but dirt between the two rows. No sign there was ever a floor.

>The Palestinian Authority has already declared the find to be "worthless and groundless" without examining any of the evidence, implying without explicitly saying so that these "clandestine excavations" were fraudulent.

Israeli archaeologist Finkelstein (co-author of Bible Unearthed) has examined the evidence and agrees it is worthless. Anyone who thinks a palace is ten feet wide with a dirt floor is not very bright.

I have articles similar to this from Israeli newspapers. This broad can find anything
=====
Counterpunch

http://www.counterpunch.org/cook09262008.html
                                                           September 26, 2008

King David Recruited to Expel Palestinians

When Archaeology Becomes a Curse

By JONATHAN COOK

From just outside Jerusalem`s Old City walls, the simple stone and
cinder-block homes of Silwan cascade southwards into a valley known as the
Holy Basin.

The Palestinian residents are used to living in the shadow of history and
religion, given dramatic physical form as the great silver dome of the al
Aqsa mosque and the looming presence of the Mount of Olives. But of late,
history has become a curse for most of Silwan`s residents.

`We have cameras everywhere watching us night and day,` said Jawad Siyam,
39. `Armed Israeli guards wander through our alleys. Our open areas, the
places where I played as a child, have become no-go zones.`

The reason is the growing number of settlers who have moved into Silwan
since the early 1990s claiming a biblical right to the land. At least 50
Jewish families, comprising 250 people, have taken over Palestinian homes
dotted across Silwan and turned them into secure compounds over which
Israeli flags flutter.

Similar takeovers are occurring out of sight in other Palestinian areas of
occupied East Jerusalem. The settler organisations, backed by private donors
from abroad, hope to make a peace agreement impossible and so ensure East
Jerusalem never becomes the capital of a Palestinian state.

But only in Silwan have the settlers defied the law so publicly, openly
recruiting an array of official Israeli bodies, from the Antiquities
Authority to the Jerusalem municipality.

Silwan`s takeover is being masterminded by a shadowy organisation known as
Elad, which unusually has been preferred over the Nature and Parks Authority
to run an important archaeological site in the village centre.

With funding provided by secretive backers in Russia and the United States,
Elad has transformed Silwan into the `City of David`. Even the signposts in
the area are oblivious to the existence of the Palestinian village and its
tens of thousands of residents.

The heart of the City of David is an archaeological park that is being
relentlessly extended into ever more corners of Silwan.

`The settlers began by taking over homes around the site,` said Mr Siyam,
whose grandmother`s home was one of the first to be seized in 1994 after her
death. `Then they were given the main excavation site, and built new homes
in the park. And now they are finding new sites, fencing off more land and
digging under our houses.`

Many homes in Mr Siyam`s neighbourhood have developed cracks in the walls,
he said, after excavations began last year to unearth a drainage channel
believed to be from the period of King Herod. Residents fear their
foundations have been damaged.

The dig was intended to run 600 metres underground to the walls of
Jerusalem`s Old City, but was halted by the courts in February after it
emerged that the archaeologists were digging without licences. Nonetheless,
Elad has recently begun work on other tunnels.

The organisation`s main focus is the City of David site itself, over which
it was given control in 1998 in a dubious deal with the Parks Authority and
Jerusalem municipality.

Elad has poured money into excavating the area and subcontracted Israel`s
main archaeological body, the Antiquities Authority, to oversee the
uncovering of what appears to be the original location of Jerusalem.
`This is an important site, but Elad has a very clear agenda,` said Yonathan
Mizrachi, a former archaeologist for the Antiquities Authority. `They want
to use archaeology, even bogus archaeology, to provide cover for their
political agenda of pushing Silwan`s Palestinians out.

`What is so disturbing is that they seem to be setting the agenda of the
Antiquities Authority, too.`

Mr Mizrachi and two other archaeologists have been leading alternative tours
of the City of David since January in a bid to challenge Elad`s claims that
it has unearthed the 3,000-year-old palace of King David, thereby making
Silwan the capital of an ancient Israelite kingdom.

But the dissident archaeologists face a Herculean task. Last year, 350,000
tourists were led around the site by Elad guides. The intermittent
alternative tours are lucky to muster a dozen visitors.

`If Elad can convince people that this was once the home of King David, then
it will be easier for them to justify their takeover of Silwan and the
removal of the Palestinian population,` Mr Mizrachi said.

The archaeologist in charge of the City of David excavations, Eilat Mazar,
has ostensibly uncovered such evidence in the form of ancient stone walls
she said belong to King David`s palace.

But Rafi Greenberg, a professor of archaeology at Tel Aviv University, who
was among those excavating the site in the late 1970s, called the work being
done under Elad`s supervision `bad science`.

Once his concerns were widely and publicly shared by archaeologists in
Israel. In the mid-1990s Elad faced a legal battle over its damaging of
ancient relics. In 1997 the Antiquities Authority cautioned against handing
the park over to Elad. And in 1998 archeologists from Hebrew University in
Jerusalem petitioned the Supreme Court over Elad`s mismanagement of the City
of David site.

However, as Elad`s control of Silwan has tightened, and the City of David`s
popularity has grown, the voices of dissent have fallen quiet. The
budget-constrained Antiquities Authority needs Elad`s funding, and Israeli
archaeologists, dependent on the Authority for work, dare not criticise its
involvement with Elad openly.

When news emerged in June that, in what the Antiquities Authority later
admitted was `a serious mishap`, dozens of skeletons from the early Islamic
period unearthed in Silwan close to the al Aqsa mosque had been discarded
without inspection, no archaeologist would speak on the record.
Instead, it has been left mainly to international scholars, including
renowned historians and archaeologists, to launch a petition demanding that
the site be removed from Elad`s control.

Mr Mizrachi said despite the City of David site being one of the most
studied in Israel, no physical evidence shows that King David ever used the
buildings. Little more can be deduced than that the remains date to the
Canaanite period 3,000 years ago. `Even if we did find a Hebrew inscription
saying `˜Welcome to King David`s palace`, that would not justify Elad`s
political aims. The residents of Silwan and their ancestors have been living
here for hundreds of years and their rights cannot be ignored. Every time a
Christian site is found in Israel should the Vatican be given the land and
Israelis evicted from their homes?`

Such arguments have fallen on deaf ears.

According to a series of reports in the local media, the government, state
archeologists, the Jerusalem municipality and the police have all colluded
with Elad and another settler organisation, Ateret Cohanim, in extending the
settlers` control of Silwan.

A series of court judgments going back more than a decade have found the
settlers falsified documents to seize land and property from Palestinian
families and that they built in contravention of local planning laws. The
judgments have been ignored and the evictions gone unenforced by the police
and the municipality. The Israeli government is also continuing to fund the
security guards who keep watch over the illegal homes.

Last month, Yossi Havillo, Jerusalem`s legal adviser, pointed out that the
municipality`s refusal to enforce a long-standing eviction order against
eight families in a settlement known as Beit Yehonatan was likely to `arouse
concern of discrimination and of the municipality`s implementation of
demolition orders against Arabs, but not against Jews`.

He was referring in part to a decision in 2005, under pressure from Elad, to
order the demolition of 88 Palestinian homes in the Bustan neighbourhood,
just below Elad`s archaeological site. Uri Sheetrit, the city engineer,
justified the demolitions on the grounds that the valley is liable to
flooding. The orders were temporarily suspended under international
pressure.

In contrast, the municipality is still assisting in the expansion of
Silwan`s settlements. In May, it began approving a plan submitted by Elad
for a new housing complex, synagogue, kindergarten, library and underground
parking for 100 cars.

Councillors also backed the confiscation of land from nine private
Palestinian owners to create a car park for the City of David. In July the
courts overruled the decision.

In a familiar pattern, said Mr Siyam, the day the court ruling was issued,
the police raided the homes of the Palestinians who had filed the petitions
and arrested them. Similar arrests occurred earlier in the year when
residents petitioned the courts to halt the excavations under their homes.
Meanwhile, Shuka Dorfman, the director of the Antiquities Authority,
recently told reporters that he was against `bringing politics into
archaeology`.

Jonathan Cook is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. His
latest books are `Israel and the Clash of Civilisations: Iraq, Iran and the
Plan to Remake the Middle East` (Pluto Press) and `Disappearing Palestine:
Israel's Experiments in Human Despair` (Zed Books). His website is
www.jkcook.net.

This article originally appeared in The National (www.thenational.ae),
published in Abu Dhabi.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline The_Skunk

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2008, 06:54:17 PM »
Any Israeli archaeologolgy would be highly dubious.

My personal favorite is Masada

http://judicial-inc.biz/masada.htm

Offline Sue

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2008, 08:12:49 PM »
Any Israeli archaeologolgy would be highly dubious.

I was looking for dates:

     The core of the Tanakh (the Hebrew Bible) is written in Classical Hebrew, and much of its present form is
     specifically the dialect of Biblical Hebrew that scholars believe flourished around the
     6th century BCE, around the time of the Babylonian exile. For this reason, Hebrew has been referred to by
     Jews as Leshon HaKodesh (לשון הקודש), "The Holy Language", since ancient times.

While searching, I also found this:



Our government under Presidents Reagan, Bush and Clinton, has provided, under the euphemism
of education (for example, House Joint Resolution 173 and Public Law 102-14), a groundwork for
the establishment of Talmudic courts of justice to be administered by disciples of Shneur Zalman's
Chabad successor, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson.

Maimonides ruled that it is a Jewish court -- or a court appointed by Jewish authority --that enforces obedience and passes judgment on Gentiles, as well as promulgating legislation by court order for that purpose. Maimonides further decreed that any non-Jewish nation "not subject to our jurisdiction" (tahaht yadeinu) will be the target of Jewish holy war. (Cf. Hilkhot Melakhim 8:9-10; 10:11. Also cf. Gerald J. Blidstein, "Holy War in Maimonidean Law," in Perspectives on Maimonides [Oxford, England: Oxford Univ. Press, 1991].

These courts are to be convened allegedly under the "Noahide Laws" (proscriptions against idolatry supposedly based on the covenant with Noah). The U.S. presidents and Congress urged the adoption of the "Noahide" Laws as interpreted by Chabad-Lubavitch Grand Rabbi Schneerson.

Prof. Easterly of the Southern University Law Center, a Jewish legal expert, has compared this Public law 102-14 to the "first rays of dawn" which "evidence the rising of a still unseen sun."

The Jewish Encyclopedia envisages a Noahide regime as a possible world order immediately preceding the universal reign of the Talmud.

It has to be understood that we are not dealing with the Noah of the Bible when the religion of Judaism refers to "Noahide law," but the Noahide law as understood and interpreted by the absolute system of falsification that constitutes the Talmud.

Under the Talmud's counterfeit Noahide Laws, the worship of Jesus is forbidden under penalty of death, since such worship of Christ is condemned by Judaism as idolatry. Meanwhile various forms of incest are permitted under the Talmudic understanding of the Noahide code. (Enziklopediya Talmudit, note 1, pp. 351-352).

Furthermore, all non-Jews would have the legal status of ger toshav ("resident alien," cf. Alan Unterman, Dictionary of Jewish Lore and Legend [London: Thames and Hudson, 1991], p. 148), even in their own land; as for example in occupied Palestine where newly arrived Khazars from Russia have an automatic right to housing and citizenship, while two million Palestinian refugees who either fled or were expelled by the Israelis, are forbidden the right of return.

Resident alien status has been clearly delineated in scholarly articles in leading Jewish publications. For example, Hebrew University Professor Mordechai Nisan, basing his exposition on Maimonides, stated that a non-Jew permitted to reside in a land ruled by Jewish law "must accept paying a tax and suffering the humiliation of servitude."

If Gentiles refuse to live a life of inferiority, then this signals their rebellion and the unavoidable necessity of Jewish warfare against their very presence. [Cf. Mordechai Nisan, Kivunim (official publication of the World Zionist Organization), August, 1984, pp. 151-156].

At a symposium ("Is Autonomy for Resident Aliens Feasible?") organized by Israeli Minister of Education Shulamit Aloni, the Israeli Chief Rabbi Shlomo Goren repeated the Talmudic teaching on resident aliens: that Judaism forbids "granting any national rights" to them. He ruled that such "Autonomy is tantamount to a denial of the Jewish religion." (Nadav Shraggai, Ha'aretz, Oct. 14, 1992).
 
American taxpayers' subsidy of the so-called "U.S. Holocaust Museum" in Washington,
D.C., is yet another indicator of the gradual establishment of a Jewish state religion in
the U.S. This "Holocaust museum" excludes any reference to holocausts perpetrated by
Jewish Communists against Christians in Russia and Eastern Europe, from 1917 onward.

The focus of the museum is almost entirely on Jewish suffering. Holocausts perpetrated by Israelis against Arabs in Lebanon and Palestine since 1948 are nowhere to be found in the exhibits of the U.S. "Holocaust Museum," which functions more like a synagogue than a repository of objective historical information.

It is through the rapid emergence of this ostensibly secular but all-pervasive "Holocaustianity"--whereby the religion
of Judaism is gaining enormous power and influence as mankind's supreme ethos and the creed of God's Holy People.
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline Sue

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2008, 08:16:50 PM »
Any Israeli archaeologolgy would be highly dubious.

So they say....
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline Sue

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2008, 08:22:42 PM »
Interesting in terms of linguistics and archeaology...But note:
The present day 'Israelis' spoke Yiddish when they came over on the boat from Eastern Europe...They are not Israelites as spoken of in the Bible, and only use this reference for political expediency, in line with their Khazar heritage...But Ben Gurion and other Ashkenazim elite decided that Hebrew would be the nation language of 'Yitzrael' because this, and the usurpation of Biblical history would give them a good rationale for seizing lands that in no way belonged to them...Lands belonging to others, but 'given to THEM  by God'...Absolutely NOWHERE in the Bible does it say the land of Palestine would be a 'heritage' of the Ashkenazim/Khazars, nor does the Bible ANYWHERE  state that these lands would be the heritage of 'Jews'.

Here is where my short-comings show up, I have not read the bible... nor am I religious. However, the article made me curious enough to see what my more knowledgeable friends might have to say.


"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline Sue

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2008, 08:28:26 PM »
If in fact it is in "hebrew" one has to ask after the problem of "deciphering" it.

This is hardly the first thing announced as "hebrew" that have turned out to be nothing of the kind.

This is also an example of prejudicing a discussion. Hebrews are found only the pack of lies, the historical fiction, we call the Old Testament. All but the thumpers agree on the 5th c. BC as the earliest possible date for the creation of the OT. So the use of the name hebrew for a language of a people in 1000BC is backdating the invention of the word by five centuries.

One might as well call it Atlantean and use that designation to argue that Atlantis really existed.


Ah thanks for showing up to shine more light upon things. Nice to see you. :-))
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2008, 08:39:24 PM »
Hola, FWC.

Glad you found it.

Offline Sue

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2008, 09:28:23 PM »

Theft and lies in broad daylight. What an incredible story about the injustice against the Palestinian people.
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline jola

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2008, 10:56:17 PM »
Now do they?


ARCHEOLOGY
TheStar.com
 
Forgery of antiquities is big business
 
Nov 04, 2008 04:30 AM

Stuart Laidlaw


If you're going to fake a Biblical antiquity, keep it simple.

And don't mention Jesus.

These and other lessons can be gleaned from Unholy Business: A True Tale of Faith, Greed, and Forgery in the Holy Land (Harper Collins), a new book about the James Ossuary, once purported to have held the bones of Jesus's brother and now exposed as a fake, unveiled to the world six years ago this week at the Royal Ontario Museum. In a narrative befitting the intrigue and mystery surrounding the shadowy world of antiquities and archeology in Israel `“ the only country of origin in the world where it is legal to sell such things `“ Nina Burleigh tells a tale of greed and ambition mixed with political and theological yearning.

It's a volatile combination.

Christians are anxious to find some tangible proof that Jesus existed, since, besides the Bible, there is none, Burleigh says. Israelis, meanwhile, are keen to find archeological evidence of a Jewish presence in the Holy Land as described in the Hebrew Bible, or Old Testament.

"They are new people in a new country, and are seeking a historic tie to the land," Burleigh, a former Time reporter, says in a telephone interview from her office at People magazine.

The owner of the ossuary, Oded Golan, is now on trial in Israel for forging the inscription on the bone box reading "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus," and a tablet claimed to have come from the first Temple of Solomon.

If real, the two objects would have had profound theological and political implications. The ossuary would challenge traditional teachings about Jesus's family, while the tablet would prove the existence of the temple, believed to have been located where the Al Aqsa Mosque now sits in Jerusalem.

Known to Jews as the Temple Mount, it's one of the most disputed places on the planet, historically and theologically significant to the world's three major religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

The Jehoash Tablet, a sandstone slab with 16 lines of text inscribed outlining repairs to Solomon's Temple in wording remarkably similar to verses in the Old Testament Book of Kings, seemed to prove the existence of the temple `“ and so cementing Jewish claims to the disputed site.

"To have that piece of evidence would have bolstered the claims of those who want to march onto the mount and take it," Burleigh says.

But, as Burleigh points out in the book, 16 lines of text, seemingly drawn straight from ancient Hebrew writings, was "too good to be true" for many skeptics. Most archeological discoveries contain only a few words or letters at best.

Such questioning led to scientific examinations of the tablet and eventually to Golan, a Tel Aviv businessman, avid collector of antiquities and owner of both the tablet and the ossuary. For many experts, the mentioning of Jesus on the ossuary also seemed too good to be true, alerting them to a possible fraud.

Searches of Golan's home and warehouses turned up Tupperware containers and baggies full of ancient dirt and charcoal, needed to age a fake object, and carving tools.

In one search, the James Ossuary was found sitting atop a disused toilet, an odd place, police felt, for a box purported to have once contained the DNA of Jesus's family.

In her book, Burleigh outlines how such objects are faked, a practice she says has been going on for centuries as local dealers played on the emotions of religious pilgrims eager to find a physical connection to the Bible's stories.

"They've been making stuff for Christians to take back home for generations," she says. "They've taken back many, many heads of John the Baptist."

The key, scientifically, is getting the patina right. Patina is the natural discolouration of an object over time. Natural patina can be faked by soaking old dirt or charcoal into an object, and then heating it, Burleigh says in the book.

Often, genuinely old objects are given new inscriptions, with the fake patina put into the inscriptions to make it seem that the wording also dates to ancient times. Sophisticated forgers, Burleigh says, might even incorporate old scratches into the new inscriptions, since the scratches would already contain old patina.

The next stage is to get experts to authenticate it, a process Burleigh says requires as much skill and art as the patina. Here, the trick is to find experts on whose emotions the forger can play, perhaps a Biblical scholar keen to prove its stories true, or a patriotic Israeli excited to find proof of a fabled Jewish temple.

"They get so excited, they can't resist," Burleigh says.

Later, when doubts are raised, the fight becomes one of conflicting science, with experts on both sides lined up to argue for or against an object's authenticity.

Add in the egos of those involved and the often subjective nature of the science itself, Burleigh says, and a conclusive decision as to whether something's a fraud seems almost impossible.

And that, she says, is where the Golan trial over the alleged forgery of the tablet and ossuary sits today. Burleigh leaves little doubt she believes he is guilty, but says Golan might still elude conviction amid confusion over the conflicting scientific testimony at his trial.

"They are putting the science (of archeology) on trial, and the subjective underbelly of the science is being exposed here, big time."

Indeed, the judge in the case last month recommended the prosecution drop the charges, saying he saw little chance of a conviction.

"After all the evidence we have heard, including the testimony of the prime defendant, is the picture still the same as the one you had when he was charged?" District Court Judge Aharon Farkash asked. "Not every case ends in the way you think it will when it starts. Maybe we can save ourselves the rest."

The trial is set to resume in January.

Frustratingly, Burleigh says, the one piece of evidence that might shift the slow-moving trial from being a battle of scientific interpretations may never be heard in court.

For a time, Burleigh writes, an Egyptian named Samach Marco Shokri Ghattes, who went by the name Marco, was employed by Golan to make fake objects. In transcripts reprinted in the book, Marco describes inscribing a tablet similar to the Jehoash Tablet according to Golan's instructions.

"With a hammer and chisel, following the sketch. He printed out a sheet from the printer and gave it to me," Marco says in the transcripts from a police interview in Cairo.

But because Egypt, an Arab nation, is unlikely to extradite one of its citizens to Israel, Burleigh says Marco is unlikely ever to be called to testify.

"He's the key," she says.

However the trial ends, which is not expected for months or years yet, Burleigh says it is unlikely to end the debate over either the tablet or the ossuary. Both, she says, are simply too important to the narratives of the people who believe in them.

"It is a natural human desire to have something," she says, "to have and to hold and to show that your belief system is true."


 

Offline Rudi Jan

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Re: Archaeologists report finding oldest Hebrew text
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2008, 11:05:29 PM »
Forgery in Israel...say it isn't so! Only the goy engage in such practices you know. Witness the "Protocols" as evidence of that.

Good find.

btw...welcome aboard. ;)
Suspend all belief. Get the facts ~ Rudi
No one rules if no one obeys ~ Lao Tzu