Author Topic: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid  (Read 4860 times)

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Offline smiling dragon

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Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« on: September 17, 2006, 03:28:39 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygmojLcPTkc

The true story of how the USS LIberty was attacked in international waters by the evil empire of Israel, killing US servicemen. 

Zionist War Crimes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et6lwJ5nteg

Offline GreyLmist

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2006, 09:11:58 AM »
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killing US servicemen

And, by extension, US troops in Viet Nam because the USS Liberty was made unavailable for service to them there.

Offline gelignite

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2006, 01:58:26 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygmojLcPTkc

The true story of how the USS LIberty was attacked in international waters by the evil empire of Israel, killing US servicemen.


This is from Alex Jones's "Terrorstorm", and it is jam-packed with inaccuracies and out-and-out falsehoods.

Among the more egregious:

Terrorstorm:
USS Liberty attacked by unmarked Mirage aircraft that specifically jammed US radar.  

Reality:
Not "unmarked". No direct evidence of "jamming".


Terrorstorm:
Torpedo boats strafed crew and life rafts in the water.  

Reality:
None of the crew ever put to sea in a raft. All casualties occurred on decks.

No sworn testimony of life rafts being machine-gunned. Some damaged rafts (that had been stored on the decks) thrown overboard, however.


Terrorstorm:
Attack went on for hour after hour after hour.  

Reality:
Attack began at about 2:00 in the afternoon. By about 3:05, the Israeli boats had signalled offers of assistance with no further attack.


Terrorstorm:
White House recalled fighters.  

Reality:
Fighters recalled long after the attack had concluded (after Israelis signalled offers of assistance) and USS Liberty sent that she was under power/control. Orders issued by Vice Admiral Martin.


Terrorstorm:
All USS Liberty crew were told they would either be put in prison for life or killed if they told anyone what really happened.  

Reality:
Newspapers and magazines of the day were rife with accounts from USS Liberty crewmembers, some of which describing the Israeli attack in a way that did not exactly favor the IDF. One kid even wrote home to his folks about it

None of them ever saw the inside of a prison cell.


That's just a few off the top of my head.


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Offline doclady

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2006, 02:16:02 PM »
This is from Alex Jones's "Terrorstorm", and it is jam-packed with inaccuracies and out-and-out falsehoods.***

That's not what the survivors sayand I'll take their word over israeli and US bureaucrats.

Offline gelignite

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2006, 02:28:47 PM »
This is from Alex Jones's "Terrorstorm", and it is jam-packed with inaccuracies and out-and-out falsehoods.***

That's not what the survivors sayand I'll take their word over israeli and US bureaucrats.

In fact, much of what is contained in Jones's "Terrorstorm" contradicts the sworn testimony of USS Liberty sailors.
I'm quite certain that you honestly believe in the purposes of your advocacy... And I am definitely opposed to banishment ~ your mere presence is a testimony to the value of this forum... Your absence would suggest that we are wasting our time here...

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Offline doclady

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2006, 08:46:24 PM »
Alex has interviewed the survivors of the USS Liberty.  Here is the War Crimes Report filed by the USS Liberty survivors.

Offline gelignite

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2006, 10:34:10 PM »
Alex has interviewed the survivors of the USS Liberty.

So he says. But where within his doc does it ever show Jones actually speaking to any of the survivors?

Take the "hour after hour after hour" comment in his narration. Where does that assertion come from, exactly?

Certainly not the sworn testimony of the crew that was given to the Navy Court of Inquiry. According those who appeared, the total duration of the attack was about 45 minutes or so. If that.

So it makes me wonder where Jones is coming from... to what extent the basis of what he asserts is grounded in the survivors' testimony.


Or any discernable truth, for that matter.
I'm quite certain that you honestly believe in the purposes of your advocacy... And I am definitely opposed to banishment ~ your mere presence is a testimony to the value of this forum... Your absence would suggest that we are wasting our time here...

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Offline doclady

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2006, 06:49:21 AM »
Quote
So he says. But where within his doc does it ever show Jones actually speaking to any of the survivors?

He's interviewed a few on his radio show.

Quote
Take the "hour after hour after hour" comment in his narration. Where does that assertion come from, exactly?
Certainly not the sworn testimony of the crew that was given to the Navy Court of Inquiry. According those who appeared, the total duration of the attack was about 45 minutes or so. If that.
So it makes me wonder where Jones is coming from... to what extent the basis of what he asserts is grounded in the survivors' testimony.
Or any discernable truth, for that matter.

You didn't read the War Crimes Report that the USS Liberty survivors have filed.

Offline gelignite

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2006, 07:11:21 AM »
He's interviewed a few on his radio show.

You didn't read the War Crimes Report that the USS Liberty survivors have filed.

I skimmed it. Doesn't say anything about "hour after hour after hour".

The Navy Court of Inquiry, on the other hand, does include crewmember testimony as to exact duration of the attack. Read the statements of McGonagle.
I'm quite certain that you honestly believe in the purposes of your advocacy... And I am definitely opposed to banishment ~ your mere presence is a testimony to the value of this forum... Your absence would suggest that we are wasting our time here...

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Offline GreyLmist

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2006, 07:26:12 AM »
Quote
Terrorstorm:
Torpedo boats strafed crew and life rafts in the water. 

Reality:
None of the crew ever put to sea in a raft. All casualties occurred on decks.

Proper reading:

Torpedo boats strafed the crew. Torpedo boats also strafed usable life rafts in the water -- 3 attached by ropes for boarding, deflating 2 and cutting the rope of 1 which was picked up by MTB personnel and witheld from the Liberty crew.

All casualties are not known definitively to have occured on decks, as per the oftentimes contradictory sworn testimony that you persistently ignore as such:


http://www.ussliberty.org/ncitext.htm
>
It was believed that those initially reported as missing are entrapped in compartments in the forward part of the ship as a result of the torpedo explosion and resultant flooding.  As of 1900,

[44]

11 June, two of the persons previously reported missing, have been recovered.  One by removing him directly from the space on board ship. The other was recovered by the PAPAGO, a Fleet tug steaming approximately six miles astern of the ship on the morning of 11 June.  It is not known at this time whether any of the other individuals reported missing have drifted free of the space through the torpedo hole and vanished from the area.  It will not be possible to determine until the ship has been drydocked and the compartment dewatered and remains recovered. >>



Quote
No sworn testimony of life rafts being machine-gunned. Some damaged rafts (that had been stored on the decks) thrown overboard, however.

Show why the uninflatable (fire and bullet ridden) damaged rafts would not have sunk upon being thrown overboard, in your opinion, and why you think Israelis would have targeted those. Also, how you think they could have known that there were no wounded lying in the 3 functional rafts [see above] which were prepared for rescue until machine gunned by them.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 10:54:54 AM by GreyLmist »

Offline GreyLmist

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2006, 07:39:30 AM »
Quote
Doesn't say anything about "hour after hour after hour".

The Navy Court of Inquiry, on the other hand, does include crewmember testimony as to exact duration of the attack.

Sunrise to sunset is the exact duration, according to the testimony, of Israel's predations that day.

Offline gelignite

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2006, 09:39:31 AM »
Sunrise to sunset is the exact duration, according to the testimony, of Israel's predations that day.

You're saying the attack continued after the Israelis signalled offers of assistance?
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Offline gelignite

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2006, 09:43:02 AM »
All casualties are not known definitively to have occured on decks...

There's no testimony to the effect that anyone was shot up while bobbing "in the water" on a liferaft, as has been indicated.

No sailors ever put to sea.

The order to abandon ship was never given.
I'm quite certain that you honestly believe in the purposes of your advocacy... And I am definitely opposed to banishment ~ your mere presence is a testimony to the value of this forum... Your absence would suggest that we are wasting our time here...

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Offline GreyLmist

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2006, 11:19:52 AM »
You're referring to the testimony that's chock full of "transcription" like this, yes?: "? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ?????"

There certainly was an order to "abandon ship" -- from Lyndon Johnson. On board the Liberty, the order to abandon ship came from [parallel irony noted] DC Central.

Offline GreyLmist

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2006, 11:24:00 AM »
I don't know how those faces snuck in there. They were just question marks when I copied and pasted them. Spooky.

Offline GreyLmist

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2006, 11:41:12 AM »
You didn't do your homework yet: Show why the uninflatable (fire and bullet ridden) damaged rafts would not have sunk upon being thrown overboard, in your opinion, and why you think Israelis would have targeted those. Also, how you think they could have known that there were no wounded lying in the 3 functional rafts [see above] which were prepared for rescue until machine gunned by them.

Interesting, though, how you think that leaving the scene of their crime without assisting the ship they had no way of knowing then wouldn't sink and without being signaled by the Liberty to leave was not part of Israel's deadly manuevers.

Until Israel and its helos left the area at nightfall, the crew had no way of determining that they weren't still attack vulnerable, as noted in the testimony. And to date there is no published clearance on what was dropped from the helo as uncontaminated by chemical or biological warfare agents.

Offline gelignite

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2006, 07:22:38 PM »
Show why the uninflatable (fire and bullet ridden) damaged rafts would not have sunk upon being thrown overboard, in your opinion, and why you think Israelis would have targeted those.

I don't know that the Israelis targeted those.

Quote
Also, how you think they could have known that there were no wounded lying in the 3 functional rafts [see above] which were prepared for rescue until machine gunned by them.

I don't know what the Israelis thought about any inflated rafts or if they even saw or specifically targeted any inflated rafts. I do know from USS Liberty crewmember testimony that the MTBs began firing (after having been fired upon by the Liberty) at a distance of a couple of thousand yards. So I imagine that anything that went overboard on the side from which the torpedo boats were approaching wound up getting pierced by a bullet.

Quote
Interesting, though, how you think that leaving the scene of their crime without assisting the ship they had no way of knowing then wouldn't sink and without being signaled by the Liberty to leave was not part of Israel's deadly manuevers.

According to the Liberty's crew, the Israeli boats signaled offers of assistance. Their offers were refused.

Quote
Until Israel and its helos left the area at nightfall, the crew had no way of determining that they weren't still attack vulnerable, as noted in the testimony.

"Attack vulnerable" is not the same as "under attack". And to whatever extent they were "vulnerable", the fact remains that that the ship was not attacked after the Israelis signalled offers of assistance.

Quote
And to date there is no published clearance on what was dropped from the helo as uncontaminated by chemical or biological warfare agents.

Apart from the fact that none of the crew ever suffered from any symtoms of chemical or biological warfare agents, of course.
I'm quite certain that you honestly believe in the purposes of your advocacy... And I am definitely opposed to banishment ~ your mere presence is a testimony to the value of this forum... Your absence would suggest that we are wasting our time here...

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Offline GreyLmist

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2006, 11:34:21 PM »
As if Israelis couldn't imagine there would be usable rafts in the water -- perhaps manned, for all they knew -- after their assaults. You haven't shown why the damaged rafts wouldn't have sunk, in your opinion. Moveover, what's your point? The damaged rafts wouldn't be US property anymore, so it's ok if Israelis shot at what they turned into "junk"? Is that why you seem to think that the attack ending at some point after they turned the ship itself into a scrap heap of slaughter is even worth mentioning? No offer of assistance was refused and you know it. Show how the MTBs (which were out of firing range of the Liberty and able to back up if they thought they were in danger) could tell any difference between ammo cooking off, as they should have expected, and alleged gunfire from tubs that were dysfunctional since the first airstrikes. According to the testimony you revere, there weren't even enough men stationed at them to fire any. A "lone gunman" couldn't do it. Prove that no crew suffered any symptoms of chemical or biological warfare agents. The fact remains there that the material has never been given clearance publicly. Even if it ever is, that wouldn't exonerate McGonagle who was negligent in his duties to implement the Chemical Drill steps (which had been practiced earlier that day) when the drop was made.   

Offline gelignite

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2006, 11:30:28 PM »
As if Israelis couldn't imagine there would be usable rafts in the water -- perhaps manned, for all they knew -- after their assaults.

I don't presume to know what they imagined. In any event, I don't see what the question about the rafts has to do with the notion that they knew they were attacking an American ship.

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You haven't shown why the damaged rafts wouldn't have sunk, in your opinion.

Maybe some of them did. So?

Quote
No offer of assistance was refused and you know it.

You are now contradicting the testimony of USS Liberty crewmembers.

Quote
Show how the MTBs (which were out of firing range of the Liberty and able to back up if they thought they were in danger) could tell any difference between ammo cooking off, as they should have expected, and alleged gunfire from tubs that were dysfunctional since the first airstrikes. According to the testimony you revere, there weren't even enough men stationed at them to fire any.

Does any of that matter? According to the Liberty's CO, the machine-gun fire from the ship's guns effectively blanketed the lead Israeli boat. For all they knew (or "should have expected"), they were under fire from what they then believed to be an Egyptian ship.

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Prove that no crew suffered any symptoms of chemical or biological warfare agents.

Such an assertion is yours and yours alone. The onus is, therefore, upon you to prove that they had.

Quote
Even if it ever is, that wouldn't exonerate McGonagle who was negligent in his duties to implement the Chemical Drill steps (which had been practiced earlier that day) when the drop was made.   

You're the only one who has ever made such an assertion that the CO was "neglignent". Even the most outspoken critics of Israel are not willing to throw McGonagle to the wolves, as you so clearly are of want.


And people say I am disrespectful to the crew of the ship.

Wow.
I'm quite certain that you honestly believe in the purposes of your advocacy... And I am definitely opposed to banishment ~ your mere presence is a testimony to the value of this forum... Your absence would suggest that we are wasting our time here...

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Offline GreyLmist

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Re: Israel attacks the USS LIberty-vid
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2006, 11:11:24 AM »
Even Israel admits that the USS Liberty was identified prior to its attack. If you think all the info on it the commanders at their various headquarters had to go by at the time was a removable marker on a board, you're dreaming. Pretending it was incumbent on none of them to verify or relocate the position of a known ship in the area that didn't vanish from the sea before launching their strikeforce is unwise.

You're the one who keeps bringing up damaged rafts. Why? Do you believe they weren't US property anymore if they didn't work, so Israelis could do whatever they wanted to them? How about the disastered ship after the first arial bombardment? -- or is it just "junk" rafts that "don't count", in your opinion?

The testimony is contradicted by crewmembers. Either you haven't read it or hope others haven't or don't understand what you think you've seen. I've explained to you before at post 35080 that "Code Lima India" is not a refusal of assistance. Halliwell also verified that fact at the usslibertyinquiry.com site.

It's known, too, that the out-of-range MTBs were not hit by any firing from the USS Liberty. Furthermore, the only way they wouldn't have expected ammo to be cooking off from the air attacks, rather than some gun mount they couldn't see anyway, would be if they thought they were striking a completely unarmed civilian ship.

You assert that the attack definitely ended when you think it did. I have reason to suspect from the helo drop that it didn't. The onus is on you to prove your claims of no further acts of war and no symptoms of chem/bio warfare agents among the crew. Mine is open until official word clears the material in question and all crewmembers of that possibility.

You are disrespectful of the crew. It doesn't make me disrespectful because McGonagle (who ordered a "stand by for torpedo attack" instead of an evacuation of the intel compartment area in the line of fire) doesn't project "godhood" to me. Also negligent is the next in line of command who should have relieved him from his duties for probable impairment due to loss of blood and implemented the Chemical Drill steps himself after the helo drop when McGonagle didn't.