Author Topic: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys  (Read 28657 times)

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Offline gelignite

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2006, 09:34:28 PM »
I stop short at the notion that the attack was deliberately carried out against a vessel that was known to be American.

Eventually you'll get it.  More and more Americans are doing their own homework and, very reluctantly and against great emotional barriers, getting it.

[...]

What they're "getting" is the standard operational bull regarding the facts of this incident. Case in point...

Quote
You are aware, of course, that the lifeboat from the USS Liberty (or some piece of it) is now in a "trophy room" in Israel?

I am aware that this is yet another lie that has been widely reported in certain circles. A rudementary check on the facts will reveal, however, that the only thing on display is the bell and helm of one of the decomissioned torpedo boats, along with several other Israeli Navy artifacts. None of which mention the USS Liberty incident. A plaque simply gives the boat number.

I highly doubt that the even curator of the museum in which they are housed is aware of their particular significance in Israeli naval history.

This is what I'm talking about, Mr Shoshoni. You appear to be a very learned individual, and I would not presume to question the historical backdrop you provide. But you are, quite plainly, woefully short on the facts of this particular incident.

How it is that I am a Cristol disinformation agent by virtue of the fact that I am pointing this out is, quite frankly, beyond my comprehension.
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Offline Rudi Jan

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2006, 09:35:08 PM »
Thought you might find this interview with James Ennis by Daryl Bradford Smith of interest.

http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmithInterviewsEnnis.html
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Offline WindRiverShoshoni

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2006, 10:23:56 PM »
You are aware, of course, that the lifeboat from the USS Liberty (or some piece of it) is now in a "trophy room" in Israel?

I am aware that this is yet another lie that has been widely reported in certain circles.


After which it was removed and replaced?  Thank you for the update.  Edit my original post to read:

You are aware, of course, that the lifeboat from the USS Liberty (or something related to it) was displayed for years in a "trophy room" in Israel?
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Offline WindRiverShoshoni

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2006, 10:27:46 PM »
This is what I'm talking about, Mr Shoshoni.

This is a cordial atmosphere, Jelly ~ you can call me "Windy."
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Offline gelignite

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2006, 12:12:11 PM »
After which [the lifeboat from the USS Liberty] was removed and replaced?  Thank you for the update.  Edit my original post to read:

You are aware, of course, that the lifeboat from the USS Liberty (or something related to it) was displayed for years in a "trophy room" in Israel?

No, Windy. I'm saying that there never was a lifeboat from the USS Liberty (or pieces thereof) that was ever displayed in any "trophy room" in Israel. What you are repeating is yet another falsehood regarding this incident.

The only thing that has ever been displayed in a museum is the bell and helm of one of the participating torpedo boats, along with those of others which had been decomissioned by the Israeli Navy. An accompanying plaque simply reads, "Bell and helm of motor torpedo boat 203". No mention of the USS Liberty whatsoever.

Once again we see the usual tactic perpetuating tall tales, presumably for their shock value. In fact, the truth is much less sensational.
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Offline WindRiverShoshoni

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2006, 01:26:19 PM »
I'm saying that there never was a lifeboat from the USS Liberty (or pieces thereof) that was ever displayed in any "trophy room" in Israel.

The only thing that has ever been displayed in a museum is the bell and helm of one of the participating torpedo boats, along with those of others which had been decomissioned by the Israeli Navy. An accompanying plaque simply reads, "Bell and helm of motor torpedo boat 203". No mention of the USS Liberty whatsoever.


Was MTB-203 the one that fired the torpedo that hit the "mission" compartment containing the linguists listening for transmissions from Russian pilots and other such stuff?

Of course visitors to the museum have never heard of Israel's heroic victory over the Liberty, right?  And I suppose you've never heard anybody boasting about it, either.

I'll give you credit for persistence, Jelly, but I really think you're wasting your time nit-picking trivia while everything else ~ that you conspicuously ignore or summarily dismiss ~ establishes Israel's intention to attack the Liberty with malice aforethought.  The U.S. Attache in Tel Aviv sent a cable on June 7 warning that Israel intended to attack the Liberty if she did not change course.  Argue with that as you might, it fairly well establishes that Israel knew exactly who they were surveilling and then attacking the next day.

Perhaps were you to shift your apologetics to some "compelling tactical necessity" that "forced" Israel to attack the Liberty, you might gain more traction in these forums.  There are a few people around who are ready to believe it had something to do with what was happening on the battlefield, maybe you could come up with something novel.

I'm sure your mentors have a fourth level of disinformation handy, maybe you should tell them that everything so far has failed, people are still believing that it was a deliberate, knowing war crime on the high seas against America, and your efforts to cover it up with contention over minutiae just isn't working because people are too well-informed.

"Bell and helm of MTB-203" is a war trophy, a symbol of valor in battle.  Any Israeli school child or military veteran visiting the museum knows what it is and the history behind it.  "Victory over America" ~ a continuing victory because of hasbara efforts like yours.  Like exhibits of historic artifacts in American museums, it really needs no introduction, just some kind of identification so people can say things like "Yes, I saw Paul Revere's saddle."  Museum visitors already know the history.

"I saw the bell from the torpedo boat" is the same thing.  "This is the Bell and Helm of the motor torpedo boat that attacked the U.S.S. Liberty during the Six-Day War and got away with it" isn't needed, every visitor knows the story.  The mere fact that it's there ~ and not hidden away in shame over Israel's "tragic mistake" ~ is sufficient evidence of Israel's intent.  Your masters know no shame.

So there's no point in beating a dead horse, right?  Just step up to the plate and say "Yeah, we did it.  So what?"  Go ahead and be bold ~ remember your motto:  "Who dares, wins."  Attacking the Liberty was, if nothing else, daring.  Go ahead and tell it like it is, champion of heroes.

And thanks for proving my underlying point.  The war trophy is there.  It certainly is not a momento of a "tragic mistake."
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Offline gelignite

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2006, 02:27:41 PM »
I'm saying that there never was a lifeboat from the USS Liberty (or pieces thereof) that was ever displayed in any "trophy room" in Israel.

The only thing that has ever been displayed in a museum is the bell and helm of one of the participating torpedo boats, along with those of others which had been decomissioned by the Israeli Navy. An accompanying plaque simply reads, "Bell and helm of motor torpedo boat 203". No mention of the USS Liberty whatsoever.


Was MTB-203 the one that fired the torpedo that hit the "mission" compartment containing the linguists listening for transmissions from Russian pilots and other such stuff?

I really don't know. I doubt that even the commanders know precisely from which boat came the one torpedo (of the five that were launched between them) that eventually struck the ship.

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Of course visitors to the museum have never heard of Israel's heroic victory over the Liberty, right?  And I suppose you've never heard anybody boasting about it, either.

If any citizen visitors to that museum are aware of the incident, then I would submit it is to the extent of the GOI's official position that the whole thing was a tragic mistake that was committed by naval forces of their own country. Far from being a "heroic victory" about which there is cause to boast, knowledgable visitors would most-probably regard the bell and helm of MTB-203 as symbolic of the fallibility of the forces which serve to protect them.

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I'll give you credit for persistence, Jelly, but I really think you're wasting your time nit-picking trivia while everything else ~ that you conspicuously ignore or summarily dismiss ~ establishes Israel's intention to attack the Liberty with malice aforethought.

If it is indeed merely "trivia", then why do you persist in spinning it falsely? Why not simply admit that while whatever it is that you've been posting (to which I've been responding) may not have any basis in truth, it is, after all, merely "trivia"?

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The U.S. Attache in Tel Aviv sent a cable on June 7 warning that Israel intended to attack the Liberty if she did not change course.  Argue with that as you might, it fairly well establishes that Israel knew exactly who they were surveilling and then attacking the next day.

If anything, it establishes what the U.S. Attache may have believed (erroneously, as the case may be).

Quote
...hasbara...

Has-what-a?
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Offline GreyLmist

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2006, 08:31:03 PM »
http://www.usslibertyinquiry.com/evidence/israel/idfhr.html

IDF History Report

Israel Defence Forces
History Department

Subject: The Attack on the "Liberty" Incident

>

Division 914 ("Pagoda" on the radio code), under the command of Commander Moshe Oren, consisted at that time of three torpedo boats - T203, T204 and T206; the flagship was T204, with the Division commander aboard.

>

A) T206 attacked first and fired one torpedo from a range of 1,000 yards and a second torpedo from a range of 550 yards; both were seen moving on course to the target but no hits were discerned.
B) T203 attacked a minute later and fired two torpedoes from a range of 2,000 yards. The right torpedo went off course, but the second torpedo hit the target and exploded on the ship's starboard underneath the waterline.
C) Finally, T204 attacked and fired only one torpedo which was not seen as traveling on target course at all.

>

T206 fished out a rescue craft (of US manufacture) >>



The Liberty Incident: Israel Navy - 1967 per Jane's Fighting Ships

http://www.thelibertyincident.com/janes.html

The motor torpedo boats that attacked the USS Liberty are T-203, T-204 and T-206. T-206 is not listed in either the 1966-1967 edition or the 1967-1968 edition.



http://usslibertyinquiry.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233

The USS Liberty Inquiry Forum - A description of the event taken exclusively from official Israeli sources

>

T203 fished out a rescue craft (of US manufacture) >>

Offline gelignite

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2006, 09:51:38 PM »
B) T203 attacked a minute later and fired two torpedoes from a range of 2,000 yards. The right torpedo went off course, but the second torpedo hit the target and exploded on the ship's starboard underneath the waterline.
C) Finally, T204 attacked and fired only one torpedo which was not seen as traveling on target course at all.

Interesting. Learn something new every day, I guess.

I still doubt, however, that your average Israeli citizen has ever read the IDF History Report on the USS Liberty attack (obviously, and as I said in another post, I never have). I doubt that any who would read a plaque mentioning "...boat 203" would immediately key in on its significance. Hard as it is to imagine, and to say the least, the particulars of this incident are probably not foremost in the mind of your average Shlomo walking the streets of Jerusalem. Most have probably never even heard of the USS Liberty. It just isn't a household term in the burbs of Netivot.

Like, say for instance, "Paul Revere" is among the burbs of this country.

As I indicated to Windy, the fact that "203" participated in an attack upon an American vessel is entirely incidental to the reason why its bell and helm were included in a museum display. And, as for anyone who does happen to realise their significance... well... what could they say?

"Guess what! I saw the bell and helm of the torpedo boat which participated in one of our military's greatest fuck-ups ever!"

Well, whoop-dee-frickin'-doo.
I'm quite certain that you honestly believe in the purposes of your advocacy... And I am definitely opposed to banishment ~ your mere presence is a testimony to the value of this forum... Your absence would suggest that we are wasting our time here...

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Offline gelignite

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2006, 10:28:08 PM »
"I saw the bell from the torpedo boat" is the same thing.  "This is the Bell and Helm of the motor torpedo boat that attacked the U.S.S. Liberty during the Six-Day War and got away with it" isn't needed, every visitor knows the story.  The mere fact that it's there ~ and not hidden away in shame over Israel's "tragic mistake" ~ is sufficient evidence of Israel's intent.  Your masters know no shame.

Oh, please. And someday, somewhere down the line, some chunk or artifact or some-such-other from the USS Vincennes will find its way into a naval museum with a plaque that reads, "[fill in the blank] from the USS Vincennes". Would this, in and of itself, serve as "sufficient evidence" of America's intent to blow a passenger jet from the sky?

Kindly get real.

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The war trophy is there.  It certainly is not a momento of a "tragic mistake."

It isn't intended as being a memento of anything other than one of a number of decomissioned Israeli boats, la-dee-da, look at the bell and helm of a decomissioned Israeli boat.

What part of that is so difficult to grasp?
I'm quite certain that you honestly believe in the purposes of your advocacy... And I am definitely opposed to banishment ~ your mere presence is a testimony to the value of this forum... Your absence would suggest that we are wasting our time here...

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Offline arden

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2006, 11:38:21 PM »

Why is Israel's image so important to you?
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Offline arden

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2006, 11:42:36 PM »

I don't like to be redundant, but . . . .

If the Israeli pilots had been flying over Liberty for six or eight hours before commencing their coordinated attack, how did they miss the Ten Foot Tall numbers painted on her topsides?

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Offline gelignite

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2006, 09:46:39 AM »
Why is Israel's image so important to you?

It's not, especially. As I said in another post, I reserve heavy criticism for Israel in this matter. I believe that they acted stipidly and recklessly, and that there has never been a proper accounting for what is, most-probably, an act of aggravated gross negligence.

I believe that they underplayed their culpability... which is fairly American-like in such matters (and should really come as no surprise, in the end).

But that Israel willfully and deliberately attacked a vessel that they knew to be American?

I don't think so.

Why is the notion that they did so important to certain participants of this forum? Why do they persist in repeating falsehoods (as WRS has done) in the course underscoring this notion for the readership here?

And then, when someone calls them on the falsehoods they've been repeating, it is suggested that the caller is a disinformation agent in the service of his "masters" Israel. And no-one disagrees.

How does that happen, exactly?
I'm quite certain that you honestly believe in the purposes of your advocacy... And I am definitely opposed to banishment ~ your mere presence is a testimony to the value of this forum... Your absence would suggest that we are wasting our time here...

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Offline gelignite

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #53 on: May 07, 2006, 10:13:24 AM »
If the Israeli pilots had been flying over Liberty for six or eight hours before commencing their coordinated attack, how did they miss the Ten Foot Tall numbers painted on her topsides?

Well... in the first place, there were no numbers painted on the Liberty's "topsides". There was a large "GTR 5" on either side of the curved hull near the bow, but nothing which could be read from directly overhead.

In the second place, there is no indication that the ship was under continuous surveillance for six or eight hours before the attack. True, the Israelis had identified the ship early that morning, and also true that, according to the ship's logs, there were distant sightings of Israeli planes at different times throughout the day (there was a war going on at the time). But none of these planes were the same ones that attacked the Liberty... that is to say that the attacking pilots were not the same ones who had personally identified the ship earlier that morning.

The attacking planes were dispatched to the Liberty's position on the request of the Israeli Navy, who had erroneously believed that the ship had shelled troop positions near the coast. They miscalculated the Liberty's speed as being that which was consistent with a warship, and they sent planes to intercept the ship before it could reach safe harbor.

According to transcripts of UHF communications between the attacking pilots and their controllers, the planes were ordered to break off after they began reading English characters off of the hull of the ship (they made several side passes). They did, of course, break off at that point. 
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Offline GreyLmist

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #54 on: May 07, 2006, 10:26:43 AM »
Quote
[fill in the blank] from the USS Vincennes

USS Vincennes@Everything2.com
>
The Vincennes sent out IFF ("Identify`”friend or foe") messages, getting no reply (see below). They also sent out seven "warning" messages, four on military bands, three on civilian (the USS Sides sent five of its own). Still no reply. >>

Offline GreyLmist

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #55 on: May 07, 2006, 10:56:30 AM »
Quote
They miscalculated the Liberty's speed as being that which was consistent with a warship

http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.htm
>
the Liberty was classed as a cargo ship >>

not a warship. Likewise, the supposed Egyptian ship.


http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/johnsonlb/xix/28062.htm
>
identification of the target as the El- Kasir was made both by the division commander and the commander of a second torpedo boat.
>
It is most bizarre that a qualified naval commander would twice compute Liberty's speed to be 30 knots or that the IDF would authorize an attack solely on the basis of an unidentified high speed contact. There is not a ship of Liberty's general appearance capable of such a speed and few have deck guns capable of shelling coastal installations.
>
Two of the IDF justifications for their action are mutually contradictory. First they say that since the speed of the unidentified was as high as 30 knots they could not have thought it was Liberty. Then they say the ship was feasibly identified as El Quesir. El Quesir has max speed of 14 knots, four less than Liberty. If the "30 knot ship couldn't have been Liberty" it follows it also couldn't have been El Quesir. >>

Offline GreyLmist

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2006, 11:22:27 AM »
Quote
the Israeli Navy, who had erroneously believed that the ship had shelled troop positions near the coast.

For hours on end?:

http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.htm
>
the report of the shelling of the AI .Arish coast for hours on end
>
The Chief Military Prosecutor argued that this identification was unreasonable because it was inconceivable to think that this auxiliary ship El- Kasir could shell the AI .Arish coast or that she could move at a speed of 28 knots. >>


AI .Arish ? -- does that mean "Artificial Intelligence"? In another font, it looks like Al, the Arabic property form during the claimed shelling. Afterwards, it's usually refered to by Israel as El Arish, Israeli seized property form. Any comment on that pattern?

Offline arden

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2006, 12:20:10 PM »

Quote
in the first place, there were no numbers painted on the Liberty's "topsides". There was a large "GTR 5" on either side of the curved hull near the bow, but nothing which could be read from directly overhead.

Go study parts of a boat.  Topsides are the sides of the hull above the waterline.
The transom is the vertical face on the stern.  That's where USS LIBERTY was painted.

Airplanes fly horizontally. 

They don't just appear out of thin air "directly overhead".

I didn't even read the rest.  You are what you are. 
You're not insulting anyone but yourself.
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Offline gelignite

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2006, 01:58:14 PM »
Go study parts of a boat.  Topsides are the sides of the hull above the waterline.

Very well. I stand corrected.

Quote
The transom is the vertical face on the stern.  That's where USS LIBERTY was painted.

Yes. In lettering that was about 18 inches in height. Only the numeral "5" (in "GTR 5") on the ship's curved topsides was 10 feet tall. The "GTR" was significantly smaller.

Quote
Airplanes fly horizontally.

Yes. In this case at altitudes of 7000-10,000 feet from a mile or two away from the ship. Do you have any idea what 18"-high lettering looks like to the naked eye from this range?

In any event, and as they align themselves for a bow-to-stern attack run, the lettering on topsides becomes more difficult for the pilots to read, especially near the bow of the ship, as the sides are curved slightly inward, sort of like this:

)(

Eventually, in subsequent waves of the attack in which the planes approached from the sides, the pilots were able to (and did) read the lettering on the topside bow. They radioed this information to their controllers and were then ordered to break off, which they of course did.

None were ever arrested for refusing to attack the American ship.

Quote
I didn't even read the rest.
 

Maybe that's your problem. Sitting there with you eyes shut and your fingers in your ears and screaming, "la, la, la, la, la" isn't going to change any of the facts I'm presenting. But, then again, I hold little hope of convincing you of anything. You believe what you believe. Path of least resistance and all.

Quote
You are what you are.

You mean a loyal, patriotic American?
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Offline arden

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Re: The Liberty, The Lobby & A Long List Of Lackeys
« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2006, 03:51:19 PM »
Quote
Maybe that's your problem.

What problem?

from you, earlier: 
Quote
. . there is no indication that the ship was under continuous surveillance for six or eight hours before the attack. True, the Israelis had identified the ship early that morning, . .

The Israelis identified Liberty. They saw her numbers from their planes and from their torpedo boats.  They heard her distress calls when they were jamming her frequencies.

A patriotic American would not contradict testimony of eye witnesses who were attacked by a foreign country.

You are saying their testimony that the Israeli pilots shot up the American Flag, is false.

You call yourself "gel-ignite" because napalm is a gel that is ignited.

You mock Americans Burned by Israel


God have Mercy on whatever you have resembling a soul.
Sanhedrin: It is the Jewish law and all the nations have to obey this law.