Author Topic: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret  (Read 7311 times)

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Offline Proemio

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2006, 12:51:19 PM »
Someone who does not flatly refuse to travel halfway around the world to use weapons against strangers who attacked nobody is no longer innocent ~ he is standing among murderers irrespective of his other intentions (i.e., other than his intent to kill).  When the innocent kid from Kansas throws down his weapon he is not to be killed.  Until then, he's just another among the murderers.
The problem with that view is, it brings us right back to The_Skunks implied resolution.
If incapacity to reason becomes the crime (the kid can easily believe doing right by his mother or country), then anyone buying an Israel bond (for example) for what ever motivation, becomes a 'guilty' party, with just the weapon being different. It's too high a bar, in my view. Were you (or I) doing such, there would be no such question, of course.

Defense of the innocent is not magnanimity.
I feared that much, but the word seemed to be close enough. (Finding the appropriate words is not easy in one's first language, let alone third, especially when talking to someone of your background. Consider me brave - or foolish.)
The point was, that a requirement to parse out the innocent when attacked by a 'superior' force is also too high a bar, whereas it can readily be demanded from that 'superior' force itself (superior in destructive capability).

What I try to avoid, is formulating standards, by which the logical conclusion leaves most everyone (if not everyone) dead. Practical, was my stated criteria - though the principle can, perhaps should, be black and white.

ed: a typo here, a typo there
« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 01:27:45 PM by Proemio »

Offline WindRiverShoshoni

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2006, 04:58:43 PM »
... a requirement to parse out the innocent when attacked by a 'superior' force ...

... is imaginary.  The fact of the attack eliminates any presumption of innocence.  When an attacker throws down his weapons and turns away, he's subject to "And if they incline to peace, incline you also."

We're trying to extract a general principle that applies in all situations with differing facts, which is a human tendency ~ to want to understand sufficiently to generalize principles ~ but that doesn't work.  In fact it's the underlying problem with turning public schools into prisons, with elaborating religious prohibitions and mandates into entire systems of coercive legislation and burdensome ritual demands, and with expanding Constitutional elements like "The Commerce Clause" ~ which gives the US federal government limited jurisdiction in interstate commerce ~ into plenary jurisdiction over every detail of everyone's personal lives.

Here we're talking (off-topic) about Skunk's proposal to exterminate a population of apparently congenital outlaws and renegades, among whom ~ or at least sharing a specific identifier ("Jooz") ~ are some innocents.  Skunk's proposal is essentially "kill'em all and let God sort'em out."  That's not acceptable.  One presumption involved is that of superior force ~ that is, the idea that we would be able to locate and identify all of them ~ not a valid presumption ~ and have options about what to do with them.  The demand, then, is that we do exacting justice, just as we would do with anyone else.

On the other hand ...

When Khomeini's students took the Embassy hostages, my public (televised) recommendation, standing among a group of Christian ministers being interviewed about it, was to turn Qum into a sea of green glass with a thermonuclear device.  I said that was what needed to be done, but wouldn't be done.  Their jaws dropped, I don't know whether that footage ever made it onto the broadcast.

Probably not ~ a muslim advocating decisive action against renegade muslims never makes the news.

But here, too ~ turning Tel Aviv into a glass parking lot ~ is not far from what the so-called Christian zionists and other Christians advocate and expect, which is a return to Israel of all of the Jews, at which point they'll all be destroyed (except for 144,000 who will be miraculously converted into prophets in white gowns or something) and the Christians will rule the nations with a rod of iron for a thousand years.

What's the difference between that and what Skunk proposes?

Christianity began as an exodus of the faithful remnant out of Temple Israel.  Rasta is another remnant.  But there are many others who remain essentially captive in Temple Israel who are otherwise innocent of what the leaders of Temple Israel have concocted in our times.  The Pauline gospels suggest that indeed, God will "kill'em and sort'em out" viz. the wheat and the tares ~ but that's not what we have been given as a way of dealing with people, as far as I know.

The attack on the U.S.S. Liberty was, without a doubt, a belligerent act of war against America.  Recognizing that would be progress toward eliminating the problem.  Skunk's "solution" is not a solution.
It's too dark here.

Offline gelignite

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2006, 08:48:35 PM »
It is well-established, not least by the testimony of an Israeli pilot who was court-martialled for refusing to attack an American vessel, that the attack on the Liberty was knowing and deliberate and ordered at the highest level of the Israeli government.

There was never any Israeli pilot who was ever court-martialed for "refusing to attack an American vessel". Such is, apparently, the stuff of unfounded rumor. Someone said it to a reporter and it got reported, to be sure, but there is no record whatsoever of the pilot in question ever having served in the IDF.

Neither is there any hard evidence with which to support the notion that the attack was "knowing and deliberate". The indication is that the Israeli toepedo boats abruptly halted their hostilities once they realized that the vessel in front of them was something other that Egyptian. They drew in close and flashed offers of assistance (they were understandably refused). The USS Liberty was subsequently allowed to sail away under her own power when the Israelis could have just as easily sent her to the bottom and killed all hands.

For more information:

http://thelibertyincident.com

I'm quite certain that you honestly believe in the purposes of your advocacy... And I am definitely opposed to banishment ~ your mere presence is a testimony to the value of this forum... Your absence would suggest that we are wasting our time here...

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Offline WindRiverShoshoni

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2006, 10:46:48 PM »
... there is no record whatsoever of the pilot in question ever having served in the IDF.

There is no record whatsoever of one-tenth of the U.S. Eighth Army (Korea and the Far East) being sent to Vietnam in the latter months of 1962, either.  There are records showing them going to Scofield Barracks in Hawaii, which they never saw, but the orders sending them to Vietnam from Hawaii simply disappeared when they "went back" to Korea "from" Hawaii.  I remember, I was there in Korea and passed the SECRET orders on to the unfortunate about-to-be Vietnam veterans who would never be able to claim their disabled veterans' benefits on that account.

There's also no record of the US Air Force Reconnaissance Squadron sent into the Sinai in support of the IDF's annihilation of the retreating Egyptian army, at about the same time as they were treacherously attacking the U.S.S. Liberty in international waters.

There's no record of the three men arrested from the rail yard behind Dealey Plaza in conjunction with the Kennedy Assassination ~ who had earpiece radios that at that time were available only to the National Football League and the Mossad.  No record at all, just an old fading photograph showing them being led away, unhandcuffed, wearing their earpiece radios.

I was awake.  I remember.  The absense of a record means nothing about "the pilot in question."

Please don't spam the forum with apologetics and lame attempts at disinformation.  You'll embarrass Judge Cristol.
It's too dark here.

Offline clayman

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2006, 11:23:00 PM »
Quote
Please don't spam the forum with apologetics and lame attempts at disinformation.  You'll embarrass Judge Cristol.

LOL!

clayman

Offline gelignite

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2006, 07:55:49 AM »
Please don't spam the forum with apologetics and lame attempts at disinformation.  You'll embarrass Judge Cristol.

I'll say it once again: There was no such Israeli pilot. Never. Not ever. All you have is second- and third-hand rumor... no pictures, no interviews... NADA.

And I'll post whatever I like, thankyouverymuch.
I'm quite certain that you honestly believe in the purposes of your advocacy... And I am definitely opposed to banishment ~ your mere presence is a testimony to the value of this forum... Your absence would suggest that we are wasting our time here...

-WindRiverShoshoni (RIP)

Offline arden

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2006, 09:31:12 AM »

Statement (excerpts) by survivor John Hrankowski:

"We had been surveilled all morning and part of the afternoon by Israeli forces. They knew who we were. We heard them reporting over radio who we were and how we were sailing and where we were sailing. They saw the flag and everything else. We were in international waters."

"We got outside at the main battle dressing station where a lot of injuries were. We were just about to go topside when we heard a lot of shots and canon fire and machine gun fire. Evidently they were trying to pick off people who were fighting fires and trying to put life rafts in the water. They were picking these people off with machine guns. We were told, I didn't see them, but we were told that they were shooting up the life rafts that were in the water, so needless to say they weren't going to take survivors at all."

gel-ignite,

To be lied to is an insult.  Your lies imply that you believe yourself to be superior but your lies make you a dishonorable cheat. 

That is all.
Sanhedrin: It is the Jewish law and all the nations have to obey this law.

Offline RACHEL1958

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2006, 10:23:13 AM »
... there is no record whatsoever of the pilot in question ever having served in the IDF.

There is no record whatsoever of one-tenth of the U.S. Eighth Army (Korea and the Far East) being sent to Vietnam in the latter months of 1962, either.  There are records showing them going to Scofield Barracks in Hawaii, which they never saw, but the orders sending them to Vietnam from Hawaii simply disappeared when they "went back" to Korea "from" Hawaii.  I remember, I was there in Korea and passed the SECRET orders on to the unfortunate about-to-be Vietnam veterans who would never be able to claim their disabled veterans' benefits on that account.

There's also no record of the US Air Force Reconnaissance Squadron sent into the Sinai in support of the IDF's annihilation of the retreating Egyptian army, at about the same time as they were treacherously attacking the U.S.S. Liberty in international waters.

There's no record of the three men arrested from the rail yard behind Dealey Plaza in conjunction with the Kennedy Assassination ~ who had earpiece radios that at that time were available only to the National Football League and the Mossad.  No record at all, just an old fading photograph showing them being led away, unhandcuffed, wearing their earpiece radios.

I was awake.  I remember.  The absense of a record means nothing about "the pilot in question."

Please don't spam the forum with apologetics and lame attempts at disinformation.  You'll embarrass Judge Cristol.

Paper records have been known to be shredded, burnt, incinerated or destroyed. Let's not forget the dreaded one of them all...DECAY. Does everything to them have to be on paper as proof that their is truth in it? Geez!!!

 
Over the Rainbow !!!

Offline GreyLmist

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2006, 10:24:51 AM »
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/johnsonlb/xix/28062
>
307. Telegram From the Defense Attache Office in Israel to the White House/1/
Tel Aviv, June 18, 1967, 1030Z.

/1/ Source: Johnson Library, National Security File, NSC Special Committee Files, Liberty. Confidential. Also sent to OSD, CNO, Department of State, COMSIXTHFLT, CINCSTRIKE, CINCNAVEUR, JCS, DIA, USUN, CINCEUR/USEUCOM, CTG 60.2, USAFE, CINCUSAREUR, CTG 60, USDAO London, USDAO Paris, and USDAO Moscow. Received at the Department of State at 8:22 a.m.

0928. Subject: Israeli Court of Inquiry in USS Liberty incident.

>

Even the officers who knew of the identification of Liberty early the same morning did not connect Liberty with the unidentified ships said to be shelling El-Arish.

>

A. When Liberty was identified in morning, her max speed was determined from Janes Fighting Ships to be 18 knots.

>

Comments: 1. All above is dictated by LTC Efrat who was translating from a document written in Hebrew.

2. LTC Efrat paused at one point in his reading to point out the GOI had received a statement from USG saying that Liberty had been identified six hours prior to the attack rather than one hour as stated in an earlier USG communication.

>

B. Two of the IDF justifications for their action are mutually contradictory. First they say that since the speed of the unidentified was as high as 30 knots they could not have thought it was Liberty. Then they say the ship was feasibly identified as El Quesir. El Quesir has max speed of 14 knots, four less than Liberty. If the "30 knot ship couldn't have been Liberty" it follows it also couldn't have been El Quesir. >>

Offline gelignite

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2006, 09:08:44 PM »
Statement (excerpts) by survivor John Hrankowski:

[...] "...They knew who we were.... They saw the flag and everything else...."

And, of course, Hrankowski is clairvoyant.

Quote
"We got outside at the main battle dressing station where a lot of injuries were. We were just about to go topside when we heard a lot of shots and canon fire and machine gun fire. Evidently they were trying to pick off people who were fighting fires and trying to put life rafts in the water. They were picking these people off with machine guns.

Well, of course they were. Having believed that the ship was Egyptian at the time.
I'm quite certain that you honestly believe in the purposes of your advocacy... And I am definitely opposed to banishment ~ your mere presence is a testimony to the value of this forum... Your absence would suggest that we are wasting our time here...

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Offline arden

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2006, 11:05:23 PM »

Quote
Having believed that the ship was Egyptian at the time.

You disregarded the rest of the small excerpt of the crewman's testimony.

"We had been surveilled all morning and part of the afternoon by Israeli forces."

"We heard them reporting over radio who we were and how we were sailing and where we were sailing.  We were in international waters."

Two sentences from a man who was there. 

The Israelis knew they were killing murdering Americans. 

Encountering an entity such as yourself who exhibits zero honor or integrity
always makes me wonder; What bred this?

Sanhedrin: It is the Jewish law and all the nations have to obey this law.

Offline GreyLmist

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2006, 11:30:53 PM »
Quote
Having believed that the ship was Egyptian at the time.


The El (not Al) Quesir...what a strange name for an Egyptian ship. It's a wonder they didn't believe they were attacking one of their own, eh?

Offline GreyLmist

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2006, 09:07:56 AM »
Quote
I'll post whatever I like, thankyouverymuch

Don't you have anything you'd like to post about the Hebrewish sounding name of that supposed Egyptian ship -- the Ol' Kisser, or however it's spelled -- that Israel claims was its target when it struck us? Something Judas-like about those tones...something fishy, too, about that purported "Gospel of Judas" what "surfaced" recently. Oh vell, any comment on this prior to the attack?:

Pg. 17 - Significant events relating to the USS Liberty Incident presented in chronological sequence
>
1055 0855 0455

Following a detailed briefing of the navy observer on the returned NORD 2501 maritime patrol craft, Navy HQ is informed the ship spotted earlier is the USS Liberty (AGTR-5) [IDF Preliminary Judicial Inquiry, 21 July 1967].

[Edit: link format]

Offline artbishopII

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2006, 01:15:45 AM »
what im saying is lets FOCUS on the latest biggest crime
so we can get those who are responsible while they are still alive
and BEFORE they neocomit bigger and newer crimes.

911 led to afghanistan.

afghanistan led to iraq.

iraq is leading us to iran and syria and lebanon and palestine.

all beacause they got away with 911 and pinned the tail on the moslem.

try to stay focused on today skunk...bitching about
the civil war or or slavery or or uss liberty or jfk/rfk assasination or vietnam will get US nowhere.

911 is fresh in the mindset.

channel your incredible mind on it.

ussliberty etc. is distracting you skunk.

focus on the present.

i bet if you were older in the 60's and al gore had invented the internet THEN...
you would have solved the jfk/rfk assasination and proved that LBJ and the
military industrial oil zionists and prevented all this kaka from hitting the fan today.

today even if you proved that LBJ killed JFK&RFK so fucking what?

hes dead...and everyone else involved in the crimes are dead.

the murderers of those killed in 911 are ALIVE and should be brought to justice while they r still alive.

sick 'em skunk!

am i making sense?

forgive me for rambling.

you are one of the most respected insightful feared by the zionist revered by the peacenicks ,"thought criminal" i know...a skunk like you can REALLY raise a stink...and make a difference...dont spread youself thin...focus on today.

bush 41 and co. masterminded 911.

there is no doubt about that in millions of thinking minds.

focus on that.

beat around the bush.

bush is a zionist...blair is a zionist

the us senate and congress is zionist...or embeded with the zionists.

nazis didnt have 300 nuclear warheads and are itching to use them.

look for marvin bush.

find out what marvin bush was doing on 911.

time is running out skunk...

bush approval rating lowest in presidential history and plumetting.

another 911 is in the works.

cyber/martial law is on the horizion.
"I hope that when it's all said and done, people will see me as a strategic thinker and that I'm able to stay focused on . . . . a . . . . . . uhhh. . . . a . . . strategy."

Offline The_Skunk

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2006, 04:59:08 AM »
Brother, I hear you.

The number one job is exposing the Jew as a cancer. I wish they would have taken Prince Charles, Diana, William, Harry, Queen Elizibeth, into a basement, and shot them like they did the Romanovs. Then people could see what creatures they are.

On 911

A week after it I had a 30 page website on the entire thing, and no one wanted to hear. People are more receptive today then they were back then. Hell, I sat on a financial board and predicted there would be a major event, using Bin LAden, to cover up the coming financial collapse. When it happened the jews had me put out to pasture.

9/11 is simple

A Sayerat Matkal team (Danny Lewin) did it, and they used jewish arabs (too big to use straight hamas arabs). I got to believe the towers were cut with thermite cords, falling from jets is too much. Flight 93 was shot down, and the Pentagon went out to attack the USS Washington, and was shot down.

If they can pull off obvious frauds like the Holocaust, or Entebbe, or Munich .... people are gulliable

Offline Unterhund

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2006, 02:35:21 PM »

9/11 is simple

A Sayerat Matkal team (Danny Lewin) did it, and they used jewish arabs (too big to use straight hamas arabs). I got to believe the towers were cut with thermite cords, falling from jets is too much. Flight 93 was shot down, and the Pentagon went out to attack the USS Washington, and was shot down.

If they can pull off obvious frauds like the Holocaust, or Entebbe, or Munich .... people are gulliable


Oh!  Dr. Jakob PhD, Jewologist Extraordinare.

Just exactly, how did the Israelis get all those Jews to commit suicide?

Could it be that you are nuts?

Offline artbishopII

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2006, 09:11:08 PM »

Just exactly, how did the Israelis get all those Jews to commit suicide?
Could it be that you are nuts?

Daniel Lwelin Barbra Olsen and the rest of the zionist terrorists are alive...no one commited suicide UH....they killed the chance passengers in an airbase somewhere.


9/11 is simple

A Sayerat Matkal team (Danny Lewin) did it, and they used jewish arabs (too big to use straight hamas arabs). I got to believe the towers were cut with thermite cords, falling from jets is too much. Flight 93 was shot down, and the Pentagon went out to attack the USS Washington, and was shot down.

If they can pull off obvious frauds like the Holocaust, or Entebbe, or Munich .... people are gulliable

"I hope that when it's all said and done, people will see me as a strategic thinker and that I'm able to stay focused on . . . . a . . . . . . uhhh. . . . a . . . strategy."

Offline GreyLmist

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Re: The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2006, 11:21:16 PM »
Quote
what im saying is lets FOCUS on the latest biggest crime
so we can get those who are responsible while they are still alive
and BEFORE they neocomit bigger and newer crimes.

911 led to afghanistan.

afghanistan led to iraq.

iraq is leading us to iran and syria and lebanon and palestine.

all beacause they got away with 911 and pinned the tail on the moslem.

try to stay focused on today

The Third World War: Part One-Nineteen
>
The KGB reports provided all said that the United States and NATO
would lose any battle with the Soviet Union, anywhere at this hour,
however they were reluctant to open an offensive into Germany because
of the potentially high costs.  Then the Soviet Union would declare
that they had evidence that the bomb set off in Dresden was built with
support from the South Korean junta.  They decided to make such a
blatantly ridiculous statement mostly because, in the words of one
Soviet Official after the war,
"If we said that Martians had done it the same people would have
believed us, if the Americans had actually done it, the same people
would never have believed us.  It was simple enough.  Besides, we
needed something against the South Koreans."
As soon as the Soviet statement was released protests broke out in
Seoul.  They were put down with extreme brutality by the regime.
Within an hour the Soviets were back on the hotline ready to, as
Breznev himself said,
"Hit the Americans with our laundry list." >>


Don't lose focus of the big picture. From Marx and the rise of Communism (see his correspondence with Abraham Lincoln) to the present (Russian Media Warn of New Cold War), notice the blood Red hands engineering The Clash of Civilizations. JFK/Bay of Pigs/Soviet bait. April 24, 1967: Brezhnev first calls for the Sixth Fleet to withdraw from the Mediterranean. The USS Liberty was attached to the Sixth Fleet. Although there were Soviet ships in the area and the Soviets were posturing as an Arab ally, it oddly wasn't their presence, surveillances, and probable communications of info with Israel's enemies that sent it literally up in arms. They are sidekicks and the US is still being played by Reds as "Monkey in the Middle East/etc."  Communism's goal is World Domination. Perhaps the '67 Sixth Fleet can help observers to develop a Sixth Sense about that. In short, I see lots of Communists. Many don't even know they're Commies. Those are the ones most likely to turn around and mend their ways but the jibberish they speak in the meantime is like fingernails on a blackboard.


Comrade Cheney vs. President Putin
 
The Sovietization of American foreign policy 
>
what is this "blackmail" Cheney is talking about? It is the Russians abandoning the doctrine of socialist internationalism and putting good old capitalist theory into practice. Instead of continuing to offer oil and natural gas to Ukraine at below-market prices, they insist on charging the price set by the international market. To Cheney, this is "blackmail": an economist would call it capitalism.

I don't know if this signifies Cheney's formal conversion to Marxism, but surely it ought to dispel the myth that our Vice President believes in anything approaching the free market. Or, perhaps, he believes that capitalism is a system reserved for the U.S. Whatever is going on here, the brazen hypocrisy of Cheney's remarks are hard to take: here, after all, is the vice president of a nation that imposes draconian economic sanctions on countries that fail to kowtow to its every edict, making accusations of "blackmail"! Here is a nation whose president refuses to take the nuking of Iran off the table as a distinct possibility `“ and it's the Russians who are the blackmailers. Go figure! >>