Author Topic: * Poll Says Americans Back Obama Gun Proposals  (Read 7625 times)

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Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2013, 06:15:15 PM »
But happily they apply for background checks for their 'firearms' purchases. Their concern is misplaced as long as they comply with a third party requirement by vendors who have subscribed to a firearms sales license. Getting on a list that allows the authorities to find you and disarm you whenever they feel they can is nothing short of stupid.

While your logic is sound, my give a damn meter registered 0 with regard to BATF background checks.

 The same goes for milions of others.  Finding is one thing, disarming is another.
 
Most of my arms were lost in a tragic boating accident, however.
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Offline Rudi Jan

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« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2013, 07:02:40 PM »
While your logic is sound, my give a damn meter registered 0 with regard to BATF background checks.

The same goes for milions of others.  Finding is one thing, disarming is another.
 
Most of my arms were lost in a tragic boating accident, however.

Then you are doing the right thing so my logic remains sound. Don't buy from 'licensed firearms dealers'. Pretty simple. They'll move their products into the private market PDQ if that is where the market moves to.

2.5 million underwent background checks since Sandy Hook so tell me about the millions that didn't? Maybe a few hundred. I sure have not heard anything else but that people are buying and registering like the good little sheep they are. You think those types will fight to keep their arms? Not likely. The point about registration is that they will disarm the people piecemeal. Street by street, town by town, county by county, state by state and everyone will comply. Except maybe a few preppers in the hills eating MRIs and playing with the breech blocks of their 'assault' rifles.
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Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2013, 07:52:55 AM »
Then you are doing the right thing so my logic remains sound. Don't buy from 'licensed firearms dealers'. Pretty simple. They'll move their products into the private market PDQ if that is where the market moves to.

2.5 million underwent background checks since Sandy Hook so tell me about the millions that didn't? Maybe a few hundred. I sure have not heard anything else but that people are buying and registering like the good little sheep they are. You think those types will fight to keep their arms? Not likely. The point about registration is that they will disarm the people piecemeal. Street by street, town by town, county by county, state by state and everyone will comply. Except maybe a few preppers in the hills eating MRIs and playing with the breech blocks of their 'assault' rifles.

If any American chooses to carry concealed, one must register their firearm, and take a class.  Been that way as long as I can recall.

I forgot caring and worrying about it a decade ago.

Surely, private sales are preferred, but my give a damn meter about background checks, stopped working way back when.  Same is true for most of America. Though of course parking lot deals at gun shows happen frequently.

Registration is in the works in NY, lets see how far it gets..I predict other states will not follow.
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Offline Rudi Jan

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« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2013, 08:40:06 AM »
If any American chooses to carry concealed, one must register their firearm, and take a class.  Been that way as long as I can recall.

And so has paying the income tax even though you are under no such obligation unless you volunteer for it. Why would you get a permit (permission) to do what is your right? Glad to see you are such a good citizen slave serving mammon rather than God.
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Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2013, 09:52:12 AM »
And so has paying the income tax even though you are under no such obligation unless you volunteer for it. Why would you get a permit (permission) to do what is your right? Glad to see you are such a good citizen slave serving mammon rather than God.

If one is stopped carrying concelaed without a permit, it is instant Felon, possible Jail, massive fine and a hassle that is not worth making a point.

If you as a Canadian, practice what you preach, And carry concealed in a nation that outlawed handguns, I might respect your viewpoint.

But As it stands now, a permit is the Law in my country,  and one Im not inclined to break.  (Though I agree with you in theory and logic.) I have emplyment and a family to consider.
Not interested in losing any war to make a point/stand.

The Background check is a Felon/Fugitive check.
 
Registration in each state (Cuomo/Feinstein) at each local police station would not be requested per the proposed law, if it was effective and thorough.  I havent sweated the  'Im on paper' permit/registration for a long time....Most gun owners I know, do not.

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Offline Wulfgar

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« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2013, 12:08:39 PM »
****

Offline Rudi Jan

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« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2013, 12:20:22 PM »
If one is stopped carrying concelaed without a permit, it is instant Felon, possible Jail, massive fine and a hassle that is not worth making a point.

Yeah well, as long as people run scared then getting murdered by some federal gun procurement team is inevitable.

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If you as a Canadian, practice what you preach, And carry concealed in a nation that outlawed handguns, I might respect your viewpoint.

They are not outlawed. You just have to register your purchase thereby conceding ownership to the Crown who can do with that gun what they want, including removing your 'legal rights' to its possession. Your respect to my 'viewpoint' is of no concern to me WD. I'm looking at the law and the rights God gave us. That is what I 'practice'. As you can see the terminology you are bogged down on is your layman's interpretation of legalese, a language entirely separate from vernacular English.

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But As it stands now, a permit is the Law in my country,  and one Im not inclined to break.  (Though I agree with you in theory and logic.) I have emplyment and a family to consider.
Not interested in losing any war to make a point/stand.

Did I suggest that you make a stand? I'm saying don't comply with what you erroneously call Law (in caps no less). Statutes are man made law that operate under color of law which have no application if one does not contract with those who promulgate regulations, requirements and executive orders. If you truly love your family and want them to live free then you would instruct them to act on principles, not mammon's statutes. Be ye then as wise as serpents... making a stand would not fall into that admonition. However complying to color of law statutes is a daily threat to your family.

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The Background check is a Felon/Fugitive check.

So? Do you think criminals and felons bother with background checks and registration?

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Registration in each state (Cuomo/Feinstein) at each local police station would not be requested per the proposed law, if it was effective and thorough.  I havent sweated the  'Im on paper' permit/registration for a long time....Most gun owners I know, do not.

The very idea that if you buy arms for your protection and feel compelled to ask for permission marks you as a slave. What does effective or thorough got to do with that flagrant disregard for your right to buy what you damn well please for any purpose that does no harm? Whether most gun owners do or do not sweat the issue only reflect the general malaise in America and Canada and anywhere else in the world as regards God's laws versus man made law. As long as that malaise continues then the pursuit of truth is stunted by fear and the path to freedom is cut off to you.
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Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2013, 01:43:22 PM »
Yeah well, as long as people run scared then getting murdered by some federal gun procurement team is inevitable.
I dont see passing a background check for felonies is 'running scared' at all.
I dont like it per se, but i understand why some types with histories give up all priveledges.
I also dont like speed limits but abide by them to avoid hassles and killing children in residential neighborhoods.  ie Driving 80mph down a street or past a school.





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They are not outlawed.
Actually, they are.
Handguns are banned in Canada.  You cant import them, carry them, own them, manufacture them.
Im surprises that you dont know this already ???!
I surmise that you dont carry then, but accuse me of 'running scared'?






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You just have to register your purchase thereby conceding ownership to the Crown who can do with that gun what they want, including removing your 'legal rights' to its possession. Your respect to my 'viewpoint' is of no concern to me WD. I'm looking at the law and the rights God gave us. That is what I 'practice'. As you can see the terminology you are bogged down on is your layman's interpretation of legalese, a language entirely separate from vernacular English.
Please be my guest at estalibishing Common Law rights to carry a concealed handgun then, in a country that doesnt allow them.
You can cry Martyr from the jailtops.
Me?
Ill opt for legal compliant and reasonable permit registration and safety in numbers when others push the envelope.






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Did I suggest that you make a stand? I'm saying don't comply with what you erroneously call Law (in caps no less). Statutes are man made law that operate under color of law which have no application if one does not contract with those who promulgate regulations, requirements and executive orders. If you truly love your family and want them to live free then you would instruct them to act on principles, not mammon's statutes. Be ye then as wise as serpents... making a stand would not fall into that admonition. However complying to color of law statutes is a daily threat to your family.

See above
I know what a statute is. But i dont like the prospect of winning a battle and losing a war either at this time.
I also Open carry handguns,  and that right is not enfringed upon us via any statutes.  Concealed is. 

And in that regard, I abide by the statutes and will until it is reasonable to conclude that one may not abide and face persecution. 
To now, I havent seen it argued or won that one can. So,  I will wait for safety in numbers.



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So? Do you think criminals and felons bother with background checks and registration?
Yes, many do.
They get turned down all the time at the gun stores I frequent.




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The very idea that if you buy arms for your protection and feel compelled to ask for permission marks you as a slave. What does effective or thorough got to do with that flagrant disregard for your right to buy what you damn well please for any purpose that does no harm? Whether most gun owners do or do not sweat the issue only reflect the general malaise in America and Canada and anywhere else in the world as regards God's laws versus man made law. As long as that malaise continues then the pursuit of truth is stunted by fear and the path to freedom is cut off to you.
Youre not asking for the right to own or carry a gun.
One abides by reasonable statutes applicable to having a non violent background such as a Felon or violent criminal with a history.
One can purchase guns legally here privately and some say that is optimal.
Asd I said earlier, my Give-a Damn meter registers 0 with the boogy man coming to take our guns.
They have to try to take them first. I dont think that they can.

90 Million vs 2 Million.
Many of the 90 are well trained Veterans.
I know who my money is on..

You can call it a malaise, but IF their Registration statutes actually worked, they wouldnt be pushing for more of them and total gun bans....
"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline Rudi Jan

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« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2013, 02:19:22 PM »
I dont see passing a background check for felonies is 'running scared' at all.

Complying out of fear of reprisal is running scared, by any definition of the term.

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I dont like it per se, but i understand why some types with histories give up all priveledges.

Again, your language is imprecise. The right to protect oneself is in-a-lien-able, not a privilege.

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I also dont like speed limits but abide by them to avoid hassles and killing children in residential neighborhoods.  ie Driving 80mph down a street or past a school.

So traveling without a license (also an in-a-lien-able right) abrogates personal responsibility? Not getting a concealed carry permit let's you shoot up your community?

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Actually, they are.
Handguns are banned in Canada.  You cant import them, carry them, own them, manufacture them.
Im surprises that you dont know this already ???!
I surmise that you dont carry then, but accuse me of 'running scared'?

You sure are trying to make this personal aren't you? I talk about running scared of a process, not actually carrying open or concealed without fear. I could care less about Canada and it's statutes. This place isn't even a country and has no real sense of nationality whatsoever. You think that people can't buy arms here or that they don't own arms? Read this instead of making statements that are absolutely false.

http://www.howtogetagun.ca/

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Please be my guest at establishing Common Law rights to carry a concealed handgun then, in a country that doesnt allow them.

I'm not asking permission from you any more than I would the government. How moronic.

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You can cry Martyr from the jailtops.
Me?
Ill opt for legal compliant and reasonable permit registration and safety in numbers when others push the envelope.

Don't forget to tug at your forelock while doing so.

The rest of your speech rationalizing slavery isn't worth bothering with. You agree on principle without living by it. Good luck with that.
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Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2013, 03:24:43 PM »
Complying out of fear of reprisal is running scared, by any definition of the term.
I think the greater good is that some types dont own, theyve forsaken their priviledge. Ive no problem with that.
Its not fear , its voluntary compliance...if you believed half of what you type with conviction, youd be carrying concealed, I trust you dont, in Kanada...




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Again, your language is imprecise. The right to protect oneself is in-a-lien-able, not a privilege.
Not everyone is entitled to the same priviledge...Felons, Murderers, Gang Banger, Wife Beaters. And that is a good thing.
Sorry, we disagree.




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So traveling without a license (also an in-a-lien-able right) abrogates personal responsibility?
Not getting a concealed carry permit let's you shoot up your community?
Yes, if one is not  conducting oneself with proper conduct, for that reason, I think some ststutes, based on scientific study, such as Residential and School speed limits, are sensible for a greater good.
And Who said anything about shooting up a community?



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You sure are trying to make this personal aren't you? I talk about running scared of a process, not actually carrying open or concealed without fear. I could care less about Canada and it's statutes. This place isn't even a country and has no real sense of nationality whatsoever. You think that people can't buy arms here or that they don't own arms? Read this instead of making statements that are absolutely false.

I dont feat the process...I went through the Registration procedure!

It is You that fear the process, any process, that implies there is no greater good to have  Criminal background info shared in a registry, to prevent idiots from owning arms....
I say that Not All people..(felons and wife beaters), have a right, the same right as a non violent, responsible person, to own firearms and carry them in concealed fashion. 
They have abrogated that right when they committed a Felony.

What is on the books presently is reasonable imo, and I say this as a Libertarian.
The system works, as is for law abiding people.   I can still get what I want, when I want, where I want but Im particular about firearms, and often go through the process to procure what I consider quality, reliably built arms.




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I'm not asking permission from you any more than I would the government. How moronic.
Don't forget to tug at your forelock while doing so.
The rest of your speech rationalizing slavery isn't worth bothering with. You agree on principle without living by it. Good luck with that.

If their Laws and registration really worked, they wouldnt be so intent n passing more draconian laws and further registration!
What they have isnt enough.  Thats clear.  They NEED Registration, further registration to take away any arms, or attempt to. It wont work.
I believe the line has been drawn in the sand, at this point.

And just remember, you are writing me from Kanada, where you have NO Rights to carry concealed, with or without a permit process. 
I dont believe our system is slavery, by consenting to a statute of Background Criminal Check BY Choice To own...I can still procure arms privately if I wish.

As stated, my give -a- F Paranoia Meter registers 0 with regard to Criminal background check  for a CCW Permit.
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Offline Rudi Jan

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« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2013, 05:58:20 PM »
I think the greater good is that some types dont own, theyve forsaken their priviledge. Ive no problem with that.
Its not fear , its voluntary compliance...if you believed half of what you type with conviction, youd be carrying concealed, I trust you dont, in Kanada...

That's nice. You do that. I learned in the military to never volunteer. It stood me in good stead.

I am not about to tell you what I do here in Canada and the fact that you persist in asking when you are oh so concerned about your welfare and in complete disregard of mine is rather telling.

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Not everyone is entitled to the same priviledge...Felons, Murderers, Gang Banger, Wife Beaters. And that is a good thing.

Like they care.

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Sorry, we disagree.

Disagreement is not a bad thing so apologies are not required. It is through hashing these things out that we find truth.

You go ahead and comply for the rest of your life. As you said you are waiting for the numbers to grow. Well, so did 97% of the colonists. Thank God for the remaining 3%. It's unfortunate that what they taught us has been lost in time.
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Offline Railroad Bum

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« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2013, 06:08:54 AM »
I dont see passing a background check for felonies is 'running scared' at all.
I dont like it per se, but i understand why some types with histories give up all priveledges.
I also dont like speed limits but abide by them to avoid hassles and killing children in residential neighborhoods.  ie Driving 80mph down a street or past a school.

It has also been illegal to own a gun if you have a "domestic violence" misdemeanor conviction.  I remember the case of one guy who got mad at his telavivavision set and kicked in the screen, and they convicted him of a domestic violence crime. so he's not allowed to own a gun to protect himself.  Also many felony convictions are for totally non-violent crimes, like using marijuana.
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Offline Railroad Bum

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« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2013, 06:10:07 AM »
That's nice. You do that. I learned in the military to never volunteer. ...


Me too. 
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Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2013, 07:45:49 AM »
That's nice. You do that. I learned in the military to never volunteer. It stood me in good stead.
Its rich coming from someone in Kanada preaching to an American about gun rights, when you(Plural) dont have any...


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I am not about to tell you what I do here in Canada and the fact that you persist in asking when you are oh so concerned about your welfare and in complete disregard of mine is rather telling.
I already KNOW what you do in Kanada, as in not a damn thing.
You have no gun rights, except a few long guns for hunting.

Put your money where your mouth ie throw me some pics of you Open Carrying handgun, or make video introducing yourself to a Mountie, tell him you are armed and plead Common Law Defense... Ill be waiting.


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Like they care.
Disagreement is not a bad thing so apologies are not required. It is through hashing these things out that we find truth.

As I said before, its a Criminal Background check we go through to apply. It weeds out Idiots.
Its not perfect but it generally works.
I did the same background test years ago to be licensed to sell securities.  Its not a gun registry, that is what is ON the books per new gun laws.


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You go ahead and comply for the rest of your life. As you said you are waiting for the numbers to grow. Well, so did 97% of the colonists. Thank God for the remaining 3%. It's unfortunate that what they taught us has been lost in time.
Got it, Mr Canadian..


Ill opt to have a permit TO carry concealed as our law mandates.
While You can defy your laws, (prove it that you actually do so), and type to us all from Prison, while you make your statement politically or beg of your fellow Canucks to Free you as a political prisoner.

Im not interested in being a sacrificial lamb for gun rights. Or Common law as it pertains to carrying guns or driving in residential & School zones. 
If you are, more power to you.
 
I think some forego their inherited rights, by being idiots ie Play stupid games = Win Stupid prizes.
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Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2013, 07:49:49 AM »
It has also been illegal to own a gun if you have a "domestic violence" misdemeanor conviction.  I remember the case of one guy who got mad at his telavivavision set and kicked in the screen, and they convicted him of a domestic violence crime. so he's not allowed to own a gun to protect himself.  Also many felony convictions are for totally non-violent crimes, like using marijuana.

They arent perfect laws, but they work pretty well, generally.

Few if any marijuana smokers have Felonies for carrying small amounts of pot for smoking.
We have something called Plea Bargaining in USA, and it works really well.
We also have small fine tickets for marijuana possession in small amounts and in some states, its perfectly legal to have useable amounts on your person.
You bring up the ridiculous as a basis for argument and its silly.

If one generally is a law abiding citizen in my country, one has the right to carry and protect ones life with lethal force. 
Wife beaters and Felons need not apply. Not sure about Television batterers, but sounds like more Hollywood nonsense than real life or just a really bad defense.  Id like to see pics of his X. Something tells me you arent getting the whole story...
"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
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Offline Rudi Jan

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« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2013, 08:36:02 AM »
They arent perfect laws, but they work pretty well, generally.

Yeah, I see that.  ::)

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Few if any marijuana smokers have Felonies for carrying small amounts of pot for smoking.

Yeah, that's why they are the bedrock of the prison/industrial complex.

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We have something called Plea Bargaining in USA, and it works really well.

And if that doesn't do the trick you can always get a pardon like Marc Rich

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We also have small fine tickets for marijuana possession in small amounts and in some states, its perfectly legal to have useable amounts on your person.

You don't get it at all do you? For a 'Christian' you certainly love the priests of mammon.

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You bring up the ridiculous as a basis for argument and its silly.

Indeed. Your elucidation on the subject has been impressive. A solid foundation of legal points that have made me shudder in my ignorance.

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If one generally is a law abiding citizen in my country, one has the right to carry and protect ones life with lethal force. 
Wife beaters and Felons need not apply. Not sure about Television batterers, but sounds like more Hollywood nonsense than real life or just a really bad defense.  Id like to see pics of his X. Something tells me you arent getting the whole story...

Nothing silly or ridiculous in that statement. I see that you still indulge in dhiarhea of the mouth to win arguments, no different than all the pages of religious crap you have been posting for years. Don't you have a forum yourself where you can wax eloquent on the higher truths and impress the noobs?
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Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2013, 09:41:32 AM »
Yeah, I see that.  ::)
Bad Guys get refused guns all the time, Ive seen it many, many times. Denied due to Felonies or Domestic Violence / Wife beater.
Youre the only person here with a problem with these types not owning guns. Id rather them not be gun owners. We arent 'endangered' because Felons dont own guns.



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Yeah, that's why they are the bedrock of the prison/industrial complex.
With extreme and race exceptions, Those in prison werent caught carrying a joint.
I believe in legalization, but its not joint smokers that are in prison.  Most are distributing dealers and for now, its against the law to have large amounts related to dealing.
You can be a sacrifical lamb for that movement too.  And cocaine, meth and heroin.
I prefer not to.





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And if that doesn't do the trick you can always get a pardon like Marc Rich
Or not be stupid and carry on your person enough dope to be arrested/charged for a Felony...
Play stupid games = win stupid prizes



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You don't get it at all do you? For a 'Christian' you certainly love the priests of mammon.
Some times, path of least resistance and common sense is more sensible.
You want to be the sacrificial lamb, have at it.
Maybe post some photos or videos with you open carrying (Cover your id if you wish) your handgun In Kanada.



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Indeed. Your elucidation on the subject has been impressive. A solid foundation of legal points that have made me shudder in my ignorance.

Until you put your money where your mouth is, youre just blowing smoke.
Open carry your handgun in Kanada and post it...

Criticizing others that CAN Open Carry legally AND carry concealed with a background check, while you live in a country that can do Neither, does not impress me or garner my respect.
Its called ironic hypocrisy.



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Nothing silly or ridiculous in that statement. I see that you still indulge in dhiarhea of the mouth to win arguments, no different than all the pages of religious crap you have been posting for years. Don't you have a forum yourself where you can wax eloquent on the higher truths and impress the noobs?

See above
Our current laws reflect my personal views.  Criminals shouldnt own, law abiding types can and do

Open Carry is legal almost everywhere in America and concealed carry, with a permit, a process I adhere to. 
Call it what you like, but call it something that YOU cant and dont do.


"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
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« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2013, 11:53:46 AM »
Well people, as you can see Walt Disney has moved a perfectly logical argument/discussion into the realm of a personal vendetta. For me to have to tell a so-called Christian to not worship mammon and have him argue the point is ludicrous beyond belief.

I think he talks just to hear himself talk since he refuses to deal with the succinct points I have fielded and instead makes it personal and just keeps adding more bogus arguments and assumptions. To carry on with him is futile.

That being the case he's on my ignore list. I simply don't do stupid.
Suspend all belief. Get the facts ~ Rudi
No one rules if no one obeys ~ Lao Tzu

Offline Rudi Jan

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« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2013, 01:25:43 PM »
NRA Warns of Door to Door Confiscations

01/21/13
source: http://www.reagancoalition.com/articles/2013/20130121003-door-confiscate.html

CBS News:

The National Rifle Association didn’t disagree with everything in President Obama’s proposal today to cut back on escalating gun violence, the group’s president David Keene told CBS News Senior White House Correspondent Bill Plante today, but with coming talks of reform, he said there are “legitimate” fears on the horizon for law-abiding gun owners.

One of his fears: that a universal background check for anyone purchasing a firearm – the first of Mr. Obama’s suggestions today – would lead to a national tracking registry of gun owners. That, in turn, Keene said, could give way to “forced buybacks,” or, door-to-door confiscation of specific weapons by the government.

“In other words, ‘I have a record that you have a shotgun, and you’re going to sell it to the government, or else,’” Keene said. “That’s the equivalent of confiscation.”
Suspend all belief. Get the facts ~ Rudi
No one rules if no one obeys ~ Lao Tzu

Offline Sue

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« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2013, 03:25:16 PM »
Somewhere on the web is a story by a  Jewish man who lived in Germany at the time.  He possessed handguns.  Then one night he heard the heavy boots coming up his stairs, and just like in Hollywood it was the Gestapo.  He said that they were as correct and polite as they could be, checked his paperwork, and apologized for the inconvenience, and left, and he kept his loaded guns.

It would be nice if you could find this or a similar article.


"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.