Author Topic: * Germany - Winter in 1946-1947  (Read 9430 times)

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Offline wag

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« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2012, 07:06:09 PM »
And it's not easy, we can't even make head or tails of 9/11 beyond the Jews did it.

Truth in details is useless.  Truth in general is all that matters.
Nobody gets paid to tell the truth.

Offline Sue

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« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2012, 08:27:30 AM »
I can see how the Church was a 'civilizing element', but I'm a bit leery about its contribution to the expansion of human knowledge (I do admit that my knowledge of history is a bit on the deficient side);  some people blame the Church for the Dark Ages, claiming that the Church promoted religious superstition (articles of faith) while discouraging 'scientific' inquiry into nature that would have promoted the advancement of human knowledge.   It would strike me as strange to label the Church's treatment of Galileo as a 'reactionary exception'.
 
Somehow I have a hard time believing that a religion of heeeebroo origin is more conducive to human happiness on this earth than one of gentile (i.e., 'pagan') origin.

Good points, all of them!

I remember learning that no episode in the history of the Catholic Church is so misunderstood as the condemnation of Galileo.
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline wag

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« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2012, 04:27:55 AM »
Good points, all of them!

I remember learning that no episode in the history of the Catholic Church is so misunderstood as the condemnation of Galileo.

We condemn you to the formal prison of this Holy office during our pleasure, and by way of salutary penance we enjoin that for three years to come you repeat once a week at the seven penitential Psalms. Reserving to ourselves liberty to moderate, commute or take off, in whole or in part, the aforesaid penalties and penance...

By whose authority and/or army?
Nobody gets paid to tell the truth.

Offline Sue

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« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2012, 10:11:25 AM »
We condemn you to the formal prison of this Holy office during our pleasure, and by way of salutary penance we enjoin that for three years to come you repeat once a week at the seven penitential Psalms. Reserving to ourselves liberty to moderate, commute or take off, in whole or in part, the aforesaid penalties and penance...

By whose authority and/or army?

Rome!

He was an astronomer, in his time a great one, honored and busy researching facts about the planetary system around our sun. This did not suit the church.

Then came the day the "Holy inquisition" made a research on Mr.Galileo and accused him for teaching heresy. If I remember my history, right up to his death he insisted that the earth is turning around the sun, not the other way around.

''Und die Erde dreht sich doch!'' (And the world IS turning!)
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline EyeBelieve

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« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2012, 07:00:45 PM »
Rome!

He was an astronomer, in his time a great one, honored and busy researching facts about the planetary system around our sun. This did not suit the church.

EWTN had a show about Galileo & his 'persecution' by the church.  I can't remember many details but they noted that Galileo was argumentative & provocative & seemingly went out of his way to get into trouble.  Also they noted that while Galileo is widely taught in schools, one rarely learns how light his punishment was.  So the evil PTB kill two birds with one stone:  libeling the Church as anti-science & more importantly using Galileo's status as 'heroic truth teller' to push fraudulent empiricism as with Newton & many others. 

http://www.larouchepub.com/lar/2007/3405_dance_of_bio-fools.html

Galileo's Leanings

To understand, and, hopefully, cure, the most widespread corruption in taught science today, it is most useful that we take into account the role of a man who was a nasty, and also influential rogue for his time, Galileo Galilei. We must understand, thus, the rot which Galileo, such among his successors as René Descartes, and the largely fictive figure of Sir Isaac Newton, expressed in forms such as the already referenced Eighteenth-Century cases of de Moivre, d'Alembert, Euler, and Lagrange, and, also, Laplace, Augustin Cauchy, et al.

Galileo Galilei's access to some of Johannes Kepler's work-in-progress, had come through Kepler's correspondence, on the subject of musical tuning, with Galileo's father. Galileo, as an adult, was a hoaxster and a household lackey of the infamous founder of that New Venetian party, Paolo Sarpi, from which the Anglo-Dutch Liberalism of today invaded relevant parts of northern Europe, that during the span of the late Sixteenth, through early and late Seventeenth centuries. Sarpi himself played a key role in the English Cecil faction's virtually sending a still very fertile William Shakespeare, into a proverbial "Coventry," during his last years of his life. This was a consequence of installing Sir Francis Bacon as a power under King James I of England. Sarpi's lackey, Galileo, personally trained Thomas Hobbes. Otherwise, Galileo paralleled the scurrilous role of Robert Fludd in the then-current campaign of attempted defamation of the work of Kepler. Galileo's crude bowdlerization of the work of Kepler, played a key role in the fraudulent English claims attributed to the literary output of the cult of "true believers" built up around black magic-specialist Isaac Newton.[18]

Galileo's own principal accomplishment, putting aside his sundry hoaxes in the name of science, was that of an advisor, on the subject of the reductionist mathematics of gambling, to inveterate gamblers with notable financial means. On that account, there is a line reaching from this side of Galileo's enterprise, then, into the follies of the likes and dupes of LTCM's Morton Scholes and Ben Bernanke today. In Galileo's method, the lie is, that either God, or some rival of the Deity, plays dice with mankind's fate. Indeed, there is a relevant, essential connection between this aspect of Galileo's activities, and the pseudo-scientific apologies of such kindred liars and hoaxsters as Bernard Mandeville, François Quesnay, and plagiarist hoaxster Adam Smith, on the subject of the Anglo-Dutch Liberal view of monetary-financial processes. This specifically empiricist ideology, as merely typified by Galileo, Descartes, and their influence, pervades not only generally accepted monetary-financial thinking, but also the axiomatic assumptions underlying most taught formal scientific method still today.

Offline Sue

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« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2012, 10:17:24 PM »
Quote
To understand, and, hopefully, cure, the most widespread corruption in taught science today, it is most useful that we take into account the role of a man who was a nasty, and also influential rogue for his time, Galileo Galilei.... etc.

They never taught us that. Being argumentative & provocative, impatient etc. could have well been true due to frustration, after all, NO ONE believed him at the time.

But then, depending upon who writes the history, we may never know.




"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline EyeBelieve

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« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2012, 07:30:06 PM »
They never taught us that. Being argumentative & provocative, impatient etc. could have well been true due to frustration, after all, NO ONE believed him at the time.

But then, depending upon who writes the history, we may never know.

Heliocentrism had already been developed by Copernicus, Kepler etc, doubtless it was accepted (perhaps quietly) by a good part of the intelligentsia.  Galileo perhaps banked on powerful support & realized the Church would be reluctant to give him severe punishment, like Ellsberg & Pentagon Papers which only detailed what smart people already knew.

Offline Sue

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« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2012, 08:15:33 PM »
Heliocentrism had already been developed by Copernicus, Kepler etc, doubtless it was accepted (perhaps quietly) by a good part of the intelligentsia.  Galileo perhaps banked on powerful support & realized the Church would be reluctant to give him severe punishment, like Ellsberg & Pentagon Papers which only detailed what smart people already knew.

Copernicus's cosmology placed a motionless sun not at the centre of the universe, but close to the centre, and also involved giving several distinct motions to the Earth. The problem that Copernicus faced was that he assumed all motion was circular so, like Ptolemy, was forced into using epicycles (see for example [78]). It was consequently considered implausible by the most of his contemporaries, and by most astronomers and natural philosophers until the middle of the seventeenth century. In the intended Preface of De revolutionibus orbium coelestium Copernicus showed that he was fully aware of the criticisms that his work would attract:-

    Perhaps there will be babblers who, although completely ignorant of mathematics, nevertheless take it upon themselves to pass judgement on mathematical questions and, badly distorting some passages of Scripture to their purpose, will dare find fault with my undertaking and censure it. I disregard them even to the extent as despising their criticism as unfounded.

Its notable defenders included Kepler and Galileo while theoretical evidence for the Copernican theory was provided by Newton's theory of universal gravitation around 150 years later.

Die katholische Kirche brauchte noch etwa 360 Jahre bis sie eingestand damals einen Justizirrtum begangen zu haben und Galilei und Kopernikus rehabilitierte.

It took the Catholic Church about 360 years to confess an error of justice and rehabilitated both, Galilai and Kopernicus. 

http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Biographies/Copernicus.html ~ http://www.wasistwas.de/aktuelles/astronomie-2009/erde-menschen/artikel/link//ed3265e9fb/article/und-die-erde-dreht-sich-doch.html

It does not say anywhere that anywhere that anyone was executed, but it was Galilei who said: ''Und die Erde Dreht sich doch!''. Could have been on his deathbed.
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline EyeBelieve

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« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2012, 07:13:46 PM »
Copernicus's cosmology placed a motionless sun not at the centre of the universe, but close to the centre, and also involved giving several distinct motions to the Earth. The problem that Copernicus faced was that he assumed all motion was circular so, like Ptolemy, was forced into using epicycles (see for example [78]). It was consequently considered implausible by the most of his contemporaries, and by most astronomers and natural philosophers until the middle of the seventeenth century. In the intended Preface of De revolutionibus orbium coelestium Copernicus showed that he was fully aware of the criticisms that his work would attract:-

    Perhaps there will be babblers who, although completely ignorant of mathematics, nevertheless take it upon themselves to pass judgement on mathematical questions and, badly distorting some passages of Scripture to their purpose, will dare find fault with my undertaking and censure it. I disregard them even to the extent as despising their criticism as unfounded.

Its notable defenders included Kepler and Galileo while theoretical evidence for the Copernican theory was provided by Newton's theory of universal gravitation around 150 years later.

Die katholische Kirche brauchte noch etwa 360 Jahre bis sie eingestand damals einen Justizirrtum begangen zu haben und Galilei und Kopernikus rehabilitierte.

It took the Catholic Church about 360 years to confess an error of justice and rehabilitated both, Galilai and Kopernicus. 

http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Biographies/Copernicus.html ~ http://www.wasistwas.de/aktuelles/astronomie-2009/erde-menschen/artikel/link//ed3265e9fb/article/und-die-erde-dreht-sich-doch.html

It does not say anywhere that anywhere that anyone was executed, but it was Galilei who said: ''Und die Erde Dreht sich doch!''. Could have been on his deathbed.

Well two wrongs don't make a right; the Church was slow to accept the new cosmology.  OTOH the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.  LaRouche website has a satirical essay about "Why Galileo should not be rehabilitated", unfortunately they only have the first page so I won't bother linking it.  One thing I note about that article is that it says the sneaky Jesuits pushed the attack on Galileo...for what reason isn't stated on the first page.  Since LaRouche generally has a dim view of the Jesuits, I assume their attack on Galileo was some complicated politics.

True that no scholars claim Galileo was executed, but I would guess that millions, with a vague notion of him being "persecuted", probably think so.

Offline Sue

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« Reply #69 on: April 21, 2012, 09:18:21 PM »
True that no scholars claim Galileo was executed, but I would guess that millions, with a vague notion of him being "persecuted", probably think so.

Quite possible.

Depending upon who writes it, history is packed with lies, rumors, and innuendos.
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline Sue

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- GREEKS FORCED TO RECOGNIZE SUPERIOR GERMAN INTELLIGENCE
« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2012, 12:24:23 PM »
Greeks Embrace German Thrift

A Commentary by Georgios Christidis   04/16/2012

REUTERS
 
Greeks used to make fun of German frugality, preferring the example of Hellenic luxury over Germanic thrift. Increasingly, however, they are now embracing Teutonic austerity, and even enjoying the experience.

Eventually, after we have all reached slave status, frugality will be the NEW NORMAL. 
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline EyeBelieve

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« Reply #71 on: April 24, 2012, 07:35:09 PM »
Eventually, after we have all reached slave status, frugality will be the NEW NORMAL.

Heh, cable tv has a new show about "cheapskates"--folks doing creative things to save $$.  That's all fine I guess but these type shows are mostly about middle-class people who aren't being foreclosed or tossed into the streets.  I don't know much about Greece, but Greek-Americans I've met are pretty thrifty & careful with a buck.  OTOH I've never heard about cycling being terribly popular in Greece whereas in Germany millions use bikes for transportation.  Germans are practical about clothes too, they don't seem to favor faddish or $$ stuff.

Offline Sue

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« Reply #72 on: April 24, 2012, 07:56:37 PM »
Heh, cable tv has a new show about "cheapskates"--folks doing creative things to save $$.  That's all fine I guess but these type shows are mostly about middle-class people who aren't being foreclosed or tossed into the streets.  I don't know much about Greece, but Greek-Americans I've met are pretty thrifty & careful with a buck.  OTOH I've never heard about cycling being terribly popular in Greece whereas in Germany millions use bikes for transportation.  Germans are practical about clothes too, they don't seem to favor faddish or $$ stuff.

Believe it or not, I have done this for most of my life. Having seen such bad times in Germany as a kid helped me later to be cautious when it came to spending. We only ever had one debt, when we borrowed the money for a small house from the Credit Union where we could pay back as much as we could afford. Paid it off in less than 5 years (that was reason I went back to work at the time.) We never made another debt since.

I love to cook at home rather than going out for an expensive meal, except when we are on holidays. 
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline EyeBelieve

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« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2012, 08:37:28 PM »
Believe it or not, I have done this for most of my life. Having seen such bad times in Germany as a kid helped me later to be cautious when it came to spending. We only ever had one debt, when we borrowed the money for a small house from the Credit Union where we could pay back as much as we could afford. Paid it off in less than 5 years (that was reason I went back to work at the time.) We never made another debt since.

I love to cook at home rather than going out for an expensive meal, except when we are on holidays.

Even Americans used to be thrifty!  Grew up a few blocks away from where Nixon rented a modest townhouse back in the 50's; in high school I lived close to Pres Ford's former house (I think he lived there when he was House Speaker), it was standard suburban, not at all like current McMansions.  The Fords sent their kids to public schools, I remember high school seniors gossiping about the Secret Service scurrying around picking up roaches that their son might have left lying around.

Offline pope daniel

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« Reply #74 on: April 25, 2012, 10:07:40 AM »
Rome!

He was an astronomer, in his time a great one, honored and busy researching facts about the planetary system around our sun. This did not suit the church.

Then came the day the "Holy inquisition" made a research on Mr.Galileo and accused him for teaching heresy. If I remember my history, right up to his death he insisted that the earth is turning around the sun, not the other way around.

''Und die Erde dreht sich doch!'' (And the world IS turning!)

the world is flat and circular like a frisbee,  and everything rotates around it.

the only evidence to the contrary are images provided by the same organization that brought us the moon landing


the heretics claim that the earth rotates at a thousand miles per hour while orbiting at thousands of miles per hour and quite frankly power-sliding through the universe.

at that rate half of us would be squished to the ground and the other half flung out into space --- but they say "gravity from the moon" keeps us in place

the heretics have convinced australians that they are upside down with textbook issued pseudo-science that attempts not even once a reproof of the holocaust, moon landing, or galileo
Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

Offline wag

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« Reply #75 on: April 25, 2012, 10:54:05 AM »
the world is flat and circular like a frisbee,  and everything rotates around it.

the only evidence to the contrary are images provided by the same organization that brought us the moon landing

I believe it is a hollow globe, and the more fortunate ones live inside.
Nobody gets paid to tell the truth.

Offline EyeBelieve

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« Reply #76 on: April 25, 2012, 06:41:17 PM »
I believe it is a hollow globe, and the more fortunate ones live inside.

Don't the Underground People have to slave all day in the mines & mushroom farms?

Offline laconas

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« Reply #77 on: April 25, 2012, 07:00:17 PM »
Heh, cable tv has a new show about "cheapskates"--folks doing creative things to save $$.  That's all fine I guess but these type shows are mostly about middle-class people who aren't being foreclosed or tossed into the streets.  I don't know much about Greece, but Greek-Americans I've met are pretty thrifty & careful with a buck.  OTOH I've never heard about cycling being terribly popular in Greece whereas in Germany millions use bikes for transportation.  Germans are practical about clothes too, they don't seem to favor faddish or $$ stuff.


Good question? I also noticed  in America blacks and Latinos are least likely to use bikes.
Nobody censors what they agree with

Offline EyeBelieve

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« Reply #78 on: April 25, 2012, 09:07:21 PM »

Good question? I also noticed  in America blacks and Latinos are least likely to use bikes.

In America there are huge # of wetbacks that bike to work, in DC area many working-class Salvadorans ride their old mountain bikes to work.  But both blacks & whites usually ride only for recreation...there's a hardcore of bike commuters that are mostly white, usually college-educated.  Sure the US is wealthier than most countries but it's weird that bike ridership among various countries has little correlation to income. 

In Northern Europe even corporate execs or high-level bureaucrats can bike commute & no one thinks it's weird; I read a blog by a Romanian biker who was constantly criticized by fellow Romanians who assume only an idiot would bike when they could afford a comfy car.  Seems like Nordics accept that comfort is not the ideal.

Offline Sue

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« Reply #79 on: April 25, 2012, 09:49:27 PM »
I believe it is a hollow globe, and the more fortunate ones live inside.

LOL...  ;D

Except of course for the underground cities to keep the elite safe should will hide if the proverbial hit the fan.
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.