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Offline laconas

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Second Period of Islamic Power
« on: December 21, 2011, 10:54:06 PM »

Between the rise of China, Latino/Indian in N. and S America, and Islam, it doesn't look like there's much of a future for European types.


Second Period of Islamic Power

by Patrick J. Buchanan

December 20, 2011

For the 30 years since The McLaughlin Group began to run on network television, the Christmas and New Year’s shows have been devoted to the conferring of annual awards.

The first award on the Christmas show is “Biggest Winner.”

This year, clearly, one of the world’s big winner was—Islam.

For this was the year when what Catholic apologist Hilaire Belloc predicted in 1938 would be the “second period of Islamic power” became manifest to all mankind.

From Morocco to Pakistan, a great awakening is occurring. And perhaps the most dramatic example of Islam rising again came in Egypt, with the fall of the 60-year-old military dictatorship.

With the ouster of Hosni Mubarak after weeks of demonstrations in Tahrir Square, the West hailed the coming of democracy.

“In international test scores of high school students in reading, math and science, not one Muslim nation places in the top 30.”

But democracy delivered a rude shock. In the first round of voting, over 60 percent of all Egyptians cast their ballots for either the Muslim Brotherhood or the radical Islamist Nour Party of the Salafis. In the second round last week, 75 percent voted Islamist.

In Tunis and Tripoli, too, the overthrow of autocrats revealed a silent majority sympathetic to Islamism.

Recep Erdogan, the most important Turkish ruler since Kemal Ataturk, was a candidate for TIME‘s Man of the Year as he turned his nation’s back on a century of secularism and embraced a form of Islamism.

Muslim Uighurs seek to rip China’s largest province away from Beijing and establish an East Turkestan. Muslims in the North Caucasus seek to strip Dagestan and Ingushetia out of Russia. In Iraq and Afghanistan, Americans are in retreat and Islamists are celebrating our eviction.

While all the world has heard of the atrocity against Muslims in Srebrenica, that world ignores the desecration and destruction of Orthodox churches and cathedrals in Kosovo and the ethnic cleansing of Serbs by the Muslim Albanians that President Clinton brought to power.

Worldwide, the Muslim population has surpassed Catholicism as the world’s largest religion, with 48 members of the U.N. General Assembly now boasting a Muslim plurality or majority.

India, with 150 million Muslims, has more than both Egypt and Iraq. Russia, with 25 million, has more Muslims than Libya and Jordan combined. China has more than Syria. Five percent of Europe is Muslim, and the numbers continue to rise.

And as with Christianity when it was surging in the 16th and 17th centuries, Islam is marked today by militancy and intolerance. From Nigeria to Ethiopia, Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, Christians are being made the victims of Muslim pogroms. And as with Christianity in the 16th and 17th centuries, Islam is a house divided, between Shia and Sunni.

If demography is destiny, the future would seem to belong to Islam.

Consider. The six most populous Muslim nations—Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Pakistan, Nigeria and Turkey—had a total population of 242 million in 1950. By 2050, that 242 million will have quintupled to 1.36 billion people.

Meanwhile, Europe’s fertility rate has been below zero population growth since the 1970s. Old Europe is dying, and its indigenous peoples are being replaced by Third World immigrants, millions of them Muslim.

Yet there is another side to the Islamic story.

In international test scores of high school students in reading, math and science, not one Muslim nation places in the top 30. Take away oil and gas, and from Algeria to Iran these nations would have little to offer the world. Iran would have to fall back on exports of carpets, caviar and pistachio nuts.

Not one Muslim nation is a member of the G-8 economic powers or the BRIC-four emerging powers—Brazil, Russia, India, China.

In the 20th century, the world saw the rise of the Asian “tigers”—South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong. Where are the Muslim tigers?

A few years back, the gross domestic product of the entire Arab world was only equal to Spain’s. Take away oil and gas, and its exports were equal to Finland’s.

Measured by manufacturing power, the Islamic world, though more populous, cannot hold a candle to China. And while Islam was a civilization superior in some ways to the West from the 7th to 17th century, somewhere that world began to stagnate and decline.

So the question arises: If Islamism is capturing Libya, Tunisia and Egypt, and will capture other Muslim nations as the Arab Spring advances, where is the historic evidence that these Islamic regimes can convert their states into manufacturing and military powers?

Where is the evidence that Islamist regimes such as Sudan and Iran can deliver what their peoples demanded when they brought down the dictators?

And if, like the communist regimes of the 20th century, they cannot deliver the good life that the rebels sought when they dumped the tyrants, what will follow Islamism, when Islamism inevitably fails?

In the long run, does Islamism really own the future of the Islamic world? Or has the clock begun to run on the fundamentalists as well?

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Offline laconas

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- Second Period of Islamic Power
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2011, 04:42:57 PM »
.
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Offline Spahi

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« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2011, 05:13:16 PM »
.

Patty fails to realize these Islamist uprisings of the 20th century have all been orchestrated well in advance, but he is correct about the soaring birth rates. In the end though, Muslims can't agree with each other on much when it comes to the religion and practices vary widely. There is no chance of a massive united front ever being organized, nor does there need to be. This global sharia nonsense will not come to pass, but it does succeed in inspiring fear of the masses.

Offline EyeBelieve

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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2011, 09:00:00 PM »
Between the rise of China, Latino/Indian in N. and S America, and Islam, it doesn't look like there's much of a future for European types.


Second Period of Islamic Power

Worldwide, the Muslim population has surpassed Catholicism as the world’s largest religion, with 48 members of the U.N. General Assembly now boasting a Muslim plurality or majority.

But Catholic church is only part of Christianity, Islam itself is not monolithic.

Quote
In the 20th century, the world saw the rise of the Asian “tigers”—South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong. Where are the Muslim tigers?
[/quote]

Malaysia is doing pretty well.  Iran was building up tech & infrastructure under the Shah until the Brzescinski/Carter/London/joo gang sandbagged them & put the loony ayatollahs in charge.

Spahi sums things up nicely.  Folks like Pat claim Islam is incompatible with progress but ignore the long history of colonial meddling that deliberately produces incompetent Islamic govts.  Buchanan is bright enough but IMO is basically often a shill who likes his little pot of gold.  The "Clash of Civilizations" is pure neocon theater.


Offline laconas

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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2011, 09:59:55 PM »
Patty fails to realize these Islamist uprisings of the 20th century have all been orchestrated well in advance, but he is correct about the soaring birth rates. In the end though, Muslims can't agree with each other on much when it comes to the religion and practices vary widely. There is no chance of a massive united front ever being organized, nor does there need to be. This global sharia nonsense will not come to pass, but it does succeed in inspiring fear of the masses.

I also agree about the rising population, but I think what's going is the old dictators are being replaced with new managers that are a cross between something that resembles democracy and with something resembles Islam. This has to be compared with the 50's and 60's when they set up the dictators with something that resembled secular socialist/democracies.

I saw a news program a few days ago how Mosques in Morocco are being used to educate people about AIDS. From this one can see how they're planning to use Islam to spread their cultural/social agendas. And from this one deduce how they're not against Islam, but rather certain groups in Islam, such as the Taliban, those who follow Sharia Law, and Shia Muslims.
Pat mentions Turkey's Erdogan for a good reason, Turkey is a place where new type of control seems to be working.

The main goals at this time appear to be two. 1st, remove the old dictators and their dynasties, and second destroy, or break apart groups in Islam that are not willing to cooperate with cultural Marxist agendas, such as AIDS, gays, feminism, etc...
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Offline EyeBelieve

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« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2011, 10:13:59 PM »
The main goals at this time appear to be two. 1st, remove the old dictators and their dynasties, and second destroy, or break apart groups in Islam that are not willing to cooperate with cultural Marxist agendas, such as AIDS, gays, feminism, etc...

Does Buchanan ever write about the common history of (his) Catholic Church & Islam opposing usury?  A search on Buchanan.org for "usury" produces zero results!  A search for "Wall Street" produces many articles with Wall Street Journal as a source.  A search for "Occupy Wall Street" produces zero results.  Pat (sometimes) attacks the Fed but seems to shy away from targeting the City/Wall St banksters who created it.

Offline laconas

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« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2011, 10:25:37 PM »
Does Buchanan ever write about the common history of (his) Catholic Church & Islam opposing usury?  A search on Buchanan.org for "usury" produces zero results!  A search for "Wall Street" produces many articles with Wall Street Journal as a source.  A search for "Occupy Wall Street" produces zero results.  Pat (sometimes) attacks the Fed but seems to shy away from targeting the City/Wall St banksters who created it.

True, I never heard him attack the economic system as a whole like Paul does. And even if doesn't agree with Austrian economics, he least get's one to think about the problem outside the Keynesian box. Pat's attacks always seemed more aimed at the cultural/social.
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Offline laconas

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« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2011, 10:36:04 PM »
But Catholic church is only part of Christianity, Islam itself is not monolithic.


Malaysia is doing pretty well.  Iran was building up tech & infrastructure under the Shah until the Brzescinski/Carter/London/joo gang sandbagged them & put the loony ayatollahs in charge.

Spahi sums things up nicely.  Folks like Pat claim Islam is incompatible with progress but ignore the long history of colonial meddling that deliberately produces incompetent Islamic govts.  Buchanan is bright enough but IMO is basically often a shill who likes his little pot of gold.  The "Clash of Civilizations" is pure neocon theater.


I think you meant say the Catholic Church isn't monolithic. I agree with the point, bad example on his part.

There are too many Muslim nations and they all have their differences, let's take Iran here. A large mono-cultural nation with an ancient history and few minorities (Kurds, Baluchs...). They were making too much progress and had to held back by installing an Islamic govt. that they believed could be controlled. It didn't turn out that way.
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Offline EyeBelieve

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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2011, 11:24:04 PM »
I think you meant say the Catholic Church isn't monolithic. I agree with the point, bad example on his part.

Actually no.  Catholic Church allows for local variations in worship but maintains international standards of belief & practice.  Muslims, OTOH have the Shia/Sunni divide, don't have a Pope as spokesman etc.

Quote
There are too many Muslim nations and they all have their differences, let's take Iran here. A large mono-cultural nation with an ancient history and few minorities (Kurds, Baluchs...). They were making too much progress and had to held back by installing an Islamic govt. that they believed could be controlled. It didn't turn out that way.

Yes Iran has made strides for progress in recent years but show signs of being hampered by the former fundie gov't.  Pakis & North Koreans make nukes but Iran is far behind.

Offline laconas

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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2011, 11:44:50 PM »
Actually no.  Catholic Church allows for local variations in worship but maintains international standards of belief & practice.  Muslims, OTOH have the Shia/Sunni divide, don't have a Pope as spokesman etc.

Yes Iran has made strides for progress in recent years but show signs of being hampered by the former fundie gov't.  Pakis & North Koreans make nukes but Iran is far behind.

OK, Islam is more like Protestantism. Got it.

Yep, if Iran wasn't disrupted in 1979, it would probably be ahead of NK and Pak. in the nuke area.
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Offline FrankDialogue

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« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2011, 07:23:55 AM »
First period of Muslim power in Europe from about 6th century to 13th century, when they basically ruled in Spain...In 6th century, Charles Martel stopped any further Muslim advance north into Spain or Germany at Battle of Tours.

In Eastern Europe, Muslim rule, through Ottoman Empire last from approximately 13th through 20th century, although Polish King John Sobieski stop Muslims from further penetration into Europe at Battle of Vienna in 1683.

In actually these could be classified as 1st & 2nd periods of expansive Muslim power.

Current period could be considered 3rd Period.

Offline FrankDialogue

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« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2011, 09:14:31 AM »
First period of Muslim power in Europe from about 6th century to 13th century, when they basically ruled in Spain...In 6th century, Charles Martel stopped any further Muslim advance north into Spain or Germany at Battle of Tours.

In Eastern Europe, Muslim rule, through Ottoman Empire last from approximately 13th through 20th century, although Polish King John Sobieski stop Muslims from further penetration into Europe at Battle of Vienna in 1683.

In actually these could be classified as 1st & 2nd periods of expansive Muslim power.

Current period could be considered 3rd Period.

Correction Martel stopped Moor advance into France & German principalities.

Offline EyeBelieve

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« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2011, 11:13:38 PM »
OK, Islam is more like Protestantism. Got it.

Yep, if Iran wasn't disrupted in 1979, it would probably be ahead of NK and Pak. in the nuke area.

The Shah knew all along that he was walking a tightrope.  He tried to develop peaceful nuke energy, play nice with Israel but all he got was hate from zios.  MSM used to claim developing The Bomb was relatively childs' play (they said one could download the plan from the Net).  MSM claims that Pakis got the bomb because they had a genius scientist who traveled around to conferences, picking up valuable hints etc.  NK got the bomb because they're weird fanatics who hid all the work in their "closed society".

I think Pakis & North Koreans got the bomb because they got big help from China or Russia.  Even "genius" Israelis admit they got help to build The Bomb.

Offline laconas

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« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2011, 12:18:52 AM »
The Shah knew all along that he was walking a tightrope.  He tried to develop peaceful nuke energy, play nice with Israel but all he got was hate from zios.  MSM used to claim developing The Bomb was relatively childs' play (they said one could download the plan from the Net).  MSM claims that Pakis got the bomb because they had a genius scientist who traveled around to conferences, picking up valuable hints etc.  NK got the bomb because they're weird fanatics who hid all the work in their "closed society".

I think Pakis & North Koreans got the bomb because they got big help from China or Russia.  Even "genius" Israelis admit they got help to build The Bomb.

If Iran wasn't set back in 1979, it would be a major player on the level of Russia today. To be top dog in the world you have to eliminate the competition. Germany and Japan had to be set back with major wars, while Argentina and Brazil were set back with economic trickery.

I wouldn't doubt if NK had moles working inside China's and Japan's nuclear industries from a generation ago, starting as even high school students. Besides the enrichment process of creating weapon grade plutonium that is not a natural substance, a nuclear industry requires a state of the art machining industry, and a state of the art chemical industry to create the explosives to detonate the device. After this, they would need a place underground to test their designs without being detected by various sensors around the world that keep an eye on such movements of the earth. Then the delivery device is another challenge.
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