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Offline WaltDisney

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The Rosary
« on: August 28, 2011, 07:19:07 AM »
IN DEFENSE OF A TRADITION
By Father Paul A. Duffner, O.P.

Most of us are familiar with the tradition that goes back many centuries, and which has been accepted in the writings of many popes, as to the connection of St. Dominic with the beginnings of the Rosary devotion. According to tradition, the occasion was the Albigensian heresy which ravaged Christendom, particularly in southern France during the latter part of the 12th and the beginning of the 13th centuries.

St. Dominic was distressed at his lack of success in his preaching in countering this heresy, and in his desperation turned to the Mother of God for help. She appeared to him (according to the tradition) and told him to use her Psalter in conjunction with his preaching of the mysteries of our salvation, as an instrument in combatting the great heresy of his day.

We do not have any historical documents dating from that period expressly referring to St. Dominic and the Rosary. We will endeavor to show, however, that there are a number of things that could be responsible for that silence.

THE EVOLUTION OF THE ROSARY

We have to keep in mind that over the centuries there has been a considerable evolution in the form that this devotion called the Rosary has taken. We have to remember that in the time of St. Dominic:

   1. The HAIL MARY did not exist as we pray it today. Only the first half of it was then used. The word JESUS was not added until the 14th century, and the second half of the prayer came later still.

   2. The OUR FATHER and the GLORY BE TO THE FATHER were not then part of the Rosary.

   3. The Mysteries of the Rosary were not fixed as they are now. Even in the 15th century in the time of ALAN DE RUPE, O.P., who was responsible for the revival of the Rosary devotion 250 years after the time of St. Dominic, the Rosary he preached was the Marian Psalter of 150 Hail Marys and 150 mysteries. These were divided into three groups of fifties dedicated to the Joyful, Sorrowful and Glorious mysteries. The fifteen mysteries in use today were officially established by Pope Pius V in 1569.

   4. There was no pendent (the cross and five extra beads) as we have now.

   5. The very word "Rosary" taken from the Latin word "rosarium" meaning rose garden, or bouquet of roses, was not used in the time of Dominic as applied to this devotion. So obviously there would be no reference to that term in documents of his time.

THE MARIAN PSALTER

The custom of counting repeated prayers by the use of a string of beads or knots, or pebbles in a bowl was prevalent long before the time of St. Dominic. This was common among the Moslems, the Buddhists, and other non-Christian religions as well as among Christians.

From time immemorial the 150 psalms of the bible comprised the most important part of the official liturgical prayers prayed by the clergy and the monks in monasteries. Since, however, many of the common folk were illiterate, there was an attempt to offer those who could not read (especially the Latin) a substitute for the 150 psalms. The practice arose of substituting 150 OUR FATHERS in place of the Latin psalms, using a string of beads to count them, dividing them into "fifties".
This chaplet, or string of beads, came to be known as "Paternoster" beads. Little by little, the HAIL MARY took its place along side the CREED and the OUR FATHER as a standard prayer. But still, it was only the first half that was used. In the course of time there came to be a parallel Psalter, i.e., one of 150 HAIL MARYS known as the MARIAN PSALTER.

THE ALBIGENSIAN HERESY (Jews)

The Albigensian heresy that plagued southern France in St. Dominic’s time was based on a dual view of the world similar to that of the Manicheans of the 3rd century, namely, that there are two supreme beings, a good God who created the spirit world, and an evil god who created the material world.
The spiritual world is essentially good, and the material world (including the human body) is essentially evil. The evil god (Satan) imprisoned spirits in material bodies, so whatever one can do to be released from that prison (including suicide) is good. Since matter is evil, marriage and the procreation of mankind is evil. The proponents of this heresy rejected Catholic belief regarding the Trinity, the Incarnation, the sacraments, hell and purgatory, but believed in the transmigration of souls. Christ was not truly a man, nor therefore, was Mary truly the Mother of God. The crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ were only illusions, and the whole concept of the cross in the Christian life was rejected.

This heresy was deeply rooted in southern France in the first part of the 13th century. Its rapid growth was nourished, among other things, by the moral laxity and worldliness of the clergy. In addition, most of the nobility fostered the heresy because of their hope to take over the lands and goods of the Church.

This is the situation that St. Dominic encountered when he began his missionary labors in southern France. This was the situation (according to tradition) that occasioned a special intervention on the part of the Mother of God. In view of Our Lady’s apparitions at crucial times in the centuries that followed, would not the intervention of our Blessed Mother at this period in history seem most likely, when the Church in western Europe was so seriously threatened. How fruitful would be the introduction of the Marian Psalter in conjunction with preaching to those who denied the Incarnation of the Word, the motherhood of Mary and the sanctity of marriage. For mingled with the explanation of the mysteries of our salvation would be the prayerful repeating over and over:

“Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.”

Cardinal Luigi Ciappi, O.P., who for many years was the theologian of the Papal household (the Pope’s personal theologian), in 1975, a few years before he was made a Cardinal, published an article entitled A DEEPENING OF THE FAITH BY MEANS OF THE ROSARY. In that article he referred to St. Dominic as an ardent promoter of the Marian Psalter, which later was called the Rosary, since he preferred a form of preaching upon the mysteries of the life, passion and death, and resurrection of Christ - alternated with the Psalter of Hail Marys.
THE BOLLANDISTS

The tradition of St. Dominic and the Rosary was more or less universally accepted, especially in documents of many popes, until the work of the Bollandists in the 17th century. This was a group of learned scholars (Belgian Jesuits) who were charged with the work of publishing the “Acta Sanctorum” covering the life of Christ and of the saints included in the liturgical calendar. These were men of undeniable scholarship who set out to rewrite the lives of the saints, so as to preserve in them all that could be established by historical sources, and to weed out legends that surround the lives of many saints.

This group concluded that there was not sufficient evidence to support the tradition of St. Dominic and the Rosary, that this tradition stemmed only from the testimony Alan de Rupe, O.P. (d. 1475), and that his claims (written 250 years after St. Dominic) cannot be substantiated by any documents dating from the time of St. Dominic.

Yet, it appears that this argument of silence put forth by the Bollandists did not seem to outweigh (in the mind of succeeding Popes) the impact of the centuries-old tradition concerning St. Dominic and the Rosary; for Popes coming after the 17th century continued to refer to St. Dominic in connection with the beginnings of the Rosary.

THE MILITIA OF JESUS CHRIST

Fr. Francis Willam, in his book THE ROSARY, ITS HISTORY AND MEANING (p. 26), speaks of the “Militia of Jesus Christ” founded by St. Dominic, the members of which recited daily the Psalter of Our Lady.
 He refers also to the “Confraternity of Prayer” founded by the Dominicans in Piacenza in 1259 (38 years after the death of St. Dominic), the members of which also prayed the 150 HAIL MARYS daily. Fr. Benedict Ashly, O.P. speaks of this Militia as having been found by a Dominican Bishop of Breganza who died in 1271.

At any rate, we have the Marian Psalter actively employed during the life of St. Dominic and shortly after. In this we have the 150 HAIL MARYS which constitute the “body” of the Rosary, i.e., the vocal prayer. What is wanting is the “soul” of the Rosary, i.e., the praying of these Hail Marys joined with reflection on the mysteries of our salvation. And yet, as Fr. Ciappi pointed out, a common method of preaching of St. Dominic was to preach on the life of Christ, interspersing his reflections with the Marian Psalter.

So it could well be that the heart of what the Rosary is (the combination of vocal and mental prayer) was practiced by St. Dominic, not as we have the Rosary today, but in such a way that what he did then in time evolved into what we have now; i.e., that his form of preaching interspersed with prayer eventually evolved into what the Rosary is today.

We know from his biographers that St. Dominic had a great devotion to the Mother of God. And it could well be that the inspiration to preach as he did came from her, as tradition says it did, i.e., the combining of her prayer (the Hail Mary as it existed then) with the reflection on the mysteries of our salvation. Pope Pius XII, in his encyclical on the Rosary, seems to imply this when he states that this devotion in its origin and the wisdom of its constitution is “more divine than human."
ALAN DE RUPE

History well documents the fact that Alan de Rupe (also Alan de la Roche) (1428-1475) was a great apostle of the Rosary. There must be some basis for his claims that St. Dominic’s connection with the Rosary is proved “both from tradition and from the testimony of writers.”

I find it hard to believe that he just made it up. He was not a dreamer. He was a Master of Sacred Theology, wrote a commentary on the Sentences of Peter Lombard, lectured in Paris, was visitator of his Order in central Europe, wrote his APOLOGIA for the Rosary, and preached in widely spread places. He founded the Rosary Confraternity in 1470 in Douai, and did much to popularize the Rosary.

It could well be that sources to which Alan de Rupe had access did not exist in later centuries. Even if documents did originally exist connecting St. Dominic and the Rosary, countless religious houses and convents were destroyed (with their libraries) in the wars of religious persecution that ravaged Europe over the centuries.

We find this thought clearly expressed by John S. Johnson in his book THE ROSARY IN ACTION, (Ch.3)

      “The critics relied mainly on the argument of silence to question the ancient tradition that the Blessed Virgin gave the Rosary to St. Dominic. They should have known that many documents referred to by Alan de Rupe may have existed, but did not survive the burning scourge of the Hugenots, who destroyed convents, monasteries, libraries among the countless institutions they committed to the flames. The critics went so far as to say that Alan had invented the Rosary devotion. . . and had attributed it to St. Dominic to tie it in with a famous name. But the two persons Alan relies on for his story of the origin of the Rosary had their “Mariales” preserved at the Convent of Gand: which library was burnt during the wars on religion.
There are other documents which have been discovered in later years which were from before Alan de Rupe’s time. The long poem “ROSARIUS” antedates him by 100 years or so, and clearly refers to St. Dominic and the battle of Muret. This removes Alan from all suspicion of inventing his sources. The elements were all in place at the time of St. Dominic; how did they get together in the Rosary?” (p. 26)

We might put this question in another way: Were these elements brought together by the preaching of St. Dominic? We cannot prove with certainty that they were; but neither does the lack of documents prove that they were not.

Masie Ward further undermines the “argument of silence” when she writes in her book THE SPLENDOR OF THE ROSARY: “Discussions of what happened in the middle ages are apt to be obscured by the fact that so many documents have been lost, especially during the ravages of the Black Plague.” (p.34)

Fr. Guy Bedouelle, O.P., in his book ST. DOMINIC, THE GRACE AND THE WORD, includes this important comment about a contemporary of St. Dominic:

      “Blessed Romee of Livia, one of St. Dominic’s companions, Prior of the Convent of Lyons, France in 1223, and later Provincial of Provence, was said to have died, according to the medieval chronicler Bernard Gui, holding tightly in his fingers the little knotted cord on which he counted his AVES. Historians regard this as one of the earliest texts describing our present Rosary in its embryonic form.” (p. 254)

Fr. Ludovicus Fanfani, O.P. states in his book DE ROSARI B. M. VIRGINIS that some years after the death of St. Dominic, the devotion of the Rosary (as he promoted it) began to decline. Among the causes of the decline were the great plague of the Black Death which swept through Europe wiping out great portions of the population, and the great Western Schism - which split Europe into various factions. The devotion did not completely disappear, however, as traces of it remained among the people; and, says Fr. Fanfani, documents are not wanting to establish that the devotion was kept alive in England during the 13th and 14th centuries. (p.27)
TESTIMONY OF THE POPES

Pope Benedict XIV (1740-58) was a renowned scholar and a promoter of historical studies and research. When he was an official of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, he was asked about the tradition of St. Dominic and the Rosary. The following is his response, a century after the work of the Bollandists:

      “You ask whether St. Dominic was the first institutor of the Rosary, and show that you yourselves are bewildered and entangled in doubts on the matter. Now, what value do you attach to the testimony of so many Popes, such as Leo X (1521), Pius V (1572), Gregory XIII (1585), Sixtus V (1590), Clement VIII (1605), Alexander VII (1667), Bl. Innocent XI (1689), Clement XI (1721), Innocent XIII (1724) and others who unanimously attribute the institution of the Rosary to St. Dominic, the founder of the Dominican Order, an apostolic man who might be compared to the apostles themselves and who, undoubtedly due to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, became the designer, the author, promoter, and most illustrious preacher of this admirable and truly heavenly instrument, the Rosary.”

After quoting the above, Fr. Anthony N. Fuerst, in his well documented book, THIS ROSARY, states: “To reject this tradition in its entirety, without strong arguments would be very rash.” (p. 20)

To the above list of Popes accepting the tradition of St. Dominic and the Rosary could be added many more coming after the time of Benedict XIV. But this is not the main argument supporting the tradition. It is the coming together of many pieces of a puzzle pertaining to the essentials of the tradition as handed down. For example:

   1. given the fact that the members of the Militia of Jesus Christ founded by St. Dominic, or by a Dominican of his day, prayed the 150 Hail Marys daily. . . .
   2. given the fact of St. Dominic’s devotion to Mary and his ardent prayer in combatting the great heresy of his day. . .along with the testimony of ALAN DE RUPE that St. Dominic did receive some communication from the Mother of God as to how to combat the errors of his time. . . . (If Our Lady at Fatima gave us a remedy in this century for overcoming Communism and attaining peace - which remedy included the Rosary - does it not seem probable that she would have intervened in the 13th century offering a means of combatting the devastating heresy of Albigensianism - as tradition assures us she did.)
   3. given the fact that, as some of his biographers explain, a common manner of preaching of Dominic was the frequent alternating of his instruction on the mysteries of our faith with prayer. . . .
   4. given the fact that the first beginning of this devotion in the time of Dominic was vastly different from its present structure, that then there was no set sequence of the mysteries, and that even the name (Rosary) had not yet been established. . . .
   5. given the fact that many convents with their libraries were destroyed in the religious persecutions that followed the 13th century. . . .

In the light of the above, it seems to me that the negative argument (the absence of documents) is outweighed by the presence of the essential components that constitute the heart of what the Rosary is. It seems to me, not merely possible, but very probable, that the Mother of God (as Alan de Rupe testified) did use St. Dominic in some way to give this devotion to the Church. One source of misconception in this regard is religious art, which portrays St. Dominic receiving from Our Lady the Rosary such as we use today. This would not have been. But then, if artists are to portray this tradition, how else would they do it?

And too, what Dominic did could have been done in such a way that it did not stand out as an innovation, as something new; for it was simply taking the Psalter of Our Lady -already in existence - and using it as a means of making his preaching fruitful. It could be that for this reason it was not commented on by the chroniclers of his day. And yet, the combining of the HAIL MARY with reflection on the life of Christ is the essence of the Rosary devotion.

"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline irmatvep

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« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2011, 07:44:11 AM »
I don't like the way JPII tampered with the rosary and only pray the three traditional mysteries.  The luminous mysteries would have made a nice chaplet IMHO.  Even Paul VI spoke out about altering the rosary.

Gotta go.  It's off to the altar of God, the God who gives joy to my youth!

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2011, 11:34:27 AM »
One can hardly imagine a better example of ritual and word magic than the rosary. Not only that the invention of the form and words of the ritual can be traced just like the lines in the Necronomicon.

The Pope as chief sorcerer and necromancer for his control of the land of the dead should alert all intelligent people to the fraud. The insane who believe in such powers are of course exempted from being expected to be alerted to the fraud.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2011, 12:14:57 PM »
One can hardly imagine a better example of ritual and word magic than the rosary. Not only that the invention of the form and words of the ritual can be traced just like the lines in the Necronomicon.

The Pope as chief sorcerer and necromancer for his control of the land of the dead should alert all intelligent people to the fraud. The insane who believe in such powers are of course exempted from being expected to be alerted to the fraud.

Peanut gallery nonsense...


What could be more ritual than the Last Supper,  and meditations of his suffering?

One can have ritual, or one can have free for all, make it up as we go along, Chaos.

The Rosary is said to counter the OT Jew psalms..who await their Anti Christ
"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2011, 07:47:25 AM »
Peanut gallery nonsense...

What could be more ritual than the Last Supper,  and meditations of his suffering?

Speaking of stupid, the one thing he did NOT say about the Last Supper was "repeat my words." Repeating the words to make something happen is word magic.

What suffering? Compared to a case of bone cancer almost nothing. And then not even a real crucifixion. BTW: Back in the 80s the Pope told nuns to knock it off -- the sadomasochistic sexual fantasy is obvious.

Quote
One can have ritual, or one can have free for all, make it up as we go along, Chaos.

Your fear of freedom is what keeps you a slave to Roman magic.

Quote
The Rosary is said to counter the OT Jew psalms..who await their Anti Christ

Ritual is one thing. Performing rituals for their own sake is arbitrary. It makes no difference if you do or do not.

Expecting ritual to accomplish something beyond the ritual itself is magic. If you are "countering" something that is beyond the mere repetition and is clearly in the realm of magic. Such superstition is embarrassing to find in the West in modern times.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline Father Brown

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« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2011, 03:35:23 PM »
Peanut gallery nonsense...


What could be more ritual than the Last Supper,  and meditations of his suffering?

One can have ritual, or one can have free for all, make it up as we go along, Chaos.

The Rosary is said to counter the OT Jew psalms..who await their Anti Christ

Walt, I realize you are talking to a guy who is trying to get your goat, but I have to disagree with you somewhat here. The Rosary is not a replacement for the Psalms, they are a way for the laity to imitate the recitation of the Psalms like the great Monastic orders used to do every day by memory. And I mean the entire Psalter. The reason there are 150 Aves in a 3 decade Rosary is because there are 150 Psalms.

Now, the TLM is loaded with many prayers from the OT, especially Psalms. And let's not forget the offical prayer of the Church, The Divine Office. We pray all 150 Psalms in the course of a week. The Daily Mass being the Crown Jewel in the middle of the Divine Office.

One more thought. I think the OT shoud be read. Especially the Pentateuch. I am woefully ignorant on the 4 Books of Kings. Something I need to get around to one of these days. The minor and major Prophetical Books are also very important. Minor meaning there is less text, not that they are less important. But, once one has a good understanding of the Pentateuch and the Mass, all a Catholic needs to really read are the Psalms and the New Testament. But the Psalms are vital. Just because the warmongering Jews interpret the Psalms in their idiotic way to justify their evil deeds does not mean we do. On the contrary, in fact I think of those creatures, the Jews, when I read about the wrath that is to come. Not by us, but by the hand of God if they do not repent. We are the new Israel after all.
 

Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2011, 04:24:10 PM »
Walt, I realize you are talking to a guy who is trying to get your goat, but I have to disagree with you somewhat here. The Rosary is not a replacement for the Psalms, they are a way for the laity to imitate the recitation of the Psalms like the great Monastic orders used to do every day by memory. And I mean the entire Psalter. The reason there are 150 Aves in a 3 decade Rosary is because there are 150 Psalms.

Now, the TLM is loaded with many prayers from the OT, especially Psalms. And let's not forget the offical prayer of the Church, The Divine Office. We pray all 150 Psalms in the course of a week. The Daily Mass being the Crown Jewel in the middle of the Divine Office.

One more thought. I think the OT shoud be read. Especially the Pentateuch. I am woefully ignorant on the 4 Books of Kings. Something I need to get around to one of these days. The minor and major Prophetical Books are also very important. Minor meaning there is less text, not that they are less important. But, once one has a good understanding of the Pentateuch and the Mass, all a Catholic needs to really read are the Psalms and the New Testament. But the Psalms are vital. Just because the warmongering Jews interpret the Psalms in their idiotic way to justify their evil deeds does not mean we do. On the contrary, in fact I think of those creatures, the Jews, when I read about the wrath that is to come. Not by us, but by the hand of God if they do not repent. We are the new Israel after all.

According to tradition, she appeared to St. Dominic during the Albigensian heresy which ravaged Christendom, particularly in southern France, during the latter part of the 12th and the beginning of the 13th centuries.
This Heresy was yet another heresy introduced by the Jew.

 St. Dominic was distressed at his lack of success of his preaching in countering this heresy, and in his desperation turned to the Mother of God for help. She appeared to him (according to the tradition) and told him to use her Psalter in conjunction with his preaching of the mysteries of our salvation, as an instrument in combating the great heresy of his day.

The Rosary he preached was the Marian Psalter of 150 Hail Marys and 150 mysteries. These were divided into three groups of fifties dedicated to the Joyful, Sorrowful and Glorious mysteries.


Quote
The Albigensian heresy

The Albigensian heresy that plagued southern France in St. Dominic’s time was based on a dual view of the world similar to that of the Manicheans of the 3rd century, namely, that there are two supreme beings, a good God who created the spirit world, and an evil god who created the material world.
 The spiritual world is essentially good, and the material world (including the human body) is essentially evil. The evil god (Satan) imprisoned spirits in material bodies, so whatever one can do to be released from that prison (including suicide) is good. Since matter is evil, marriage and the procreation of mankind is evil.
The proponents of this heresy (JEWS)  rejected Catholic belief regarding the Trinity, the Incarnation, the sacraments, hell and purgatory, but believed in the transmigration of souls. Christ was not truly a man, nor therefore, was Mary truly the Mother of God. The crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ were only illusions, and the whole concept of the cross in the Christian life was rejected.


(If Our Lady at Fatima gave us a remedy in this century for overcoming Communism and attaining peace—which remedy included the Rosary—does it not seem probable that she would have intervened in the 13th century offering a means of combating the devastating heresy of Jew Albigensianism—as tradition assures us she did?)'

"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2011, 04:26:04 PM »
RemnantNewspaper.com)
In the May 15th issue of The Remnant I noticed an advertisement placed by the Canons Regular of Saint John Cantius promoting “The Traditional Rosary” and recommending that one pray “the Psaltery of Our Lady—150 Hail Mary’s.”

The reference to the Psaltery is telling, for the traditional Rosary is modeled on the ancient Psalter of 150 Psalms: 150 songs to Mary; fifty Aves for each of the triad of mysteries—the Joyful, the Sorrowful, the Glorious; a triune prayer addressed to the Mother of the triune God.

The reference to the Psaltery is telling for another reason: It is indirectly an unfavorable comment on the “new” Rosary of John Paul II, which added five “luminous” mysteries, and thus 50 more Aves, to the traditional Rosary.

That makes a total of 200 Aves, which would destroy the Rosary’s ancient correspondence to the 150 Psalms of the Psalter; the Rosary would no longer be “the Psaltery of Our Lady.” Then, of course, the “new” Rosary would no be longer triune, but rather would have four parts involving 50 Aves each: Joyful, Sorrowful, Glorious, and “Luminous.”

"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2011, 04:52:14 PM »
'The Albigensians were a type of Manichee and they believed in euthanasia, abortion and sodomy and opposed marriage and child-birth because they believed that all material things were evil and created by an evil force.
They had one Sacrament which was called the consolamentum and consisted in euthanasia by either starvation or suffocation. They had murdered Catholic missionaries sent to preach to them and murdered bishops, priests and the Papal legate who was sent to negotiate with them.'
"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline EyeBelieve

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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2011, 06:10:41 PM »
The Rosary is said to counter the OT Jew psalms..who await their Anti Christ

Well after seeing 100's of EWTN V2 masses I tend to get a bit irritated when I hear the psalm reading.  The Psalms sometimes strike me as arrogant & smug typical of OT.  I was brought up in Espiscopal & IIRC we always had OT, NT & Psalm readings.  I dunno, why do Christians need to rely on OT at all?

Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2011, 06:12:18 PM »
Well after seeing 100's of EWTN V2 masses I tend to get a bit irritated when I hear the psalm reading.  The Psalms sometimes strike me as arrogant & smug typical of OT.  I was brought up in Espiscopal & IIRC we always had OT, NT & Psalm readings.  I dunno, why do Christians need to rely on OT at all?

Your question is self evident...they dont.



'Own countrymen the same things those churches Suffered from the Jews, who both Killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased Not God, and are Contrary to all men.'
TH 2:15

"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2011, 08:52:36 PM »
Walt, I realize you are talking to a guy who is trying to get your goat,

You mean like Drag Me To Hell? That was my kind of goat.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2011, 09:10:46 PM »
'The Albigensians were a type of Manichee and they believed in euthanasia, abortion and sodomy and opposed marriage and child-birth because they believed that all material things were evil and created by an evil force.
They had one Sacrament which was called the consolamentum and consisted in euthanasia by either starvation or suffocation.

If all that were true what was the problem? They would have eliminated themselves in a couple generations.

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They had murdered Catholic missionaries sent to preach to them and murdered bishops, priests and the Papal legate who was sent to negotiate with them.'

And the Catholics murdered their preachers. Don't start a fight you can't finish. Fair is fair.

But if what you say about them was true why did anyone bother trying to correct them as they would have eliminated themselves by their own practices. Was it better to kill them in combat than to let them die out by their own practices? What kind of stupidity is that?

There was no one to be "saved" by combat. No living person was harmed by the beliefs. The only difference might be the public admission of euthanasia which in orthodox Christianity is a fact which is not permitted to be spoken. "The family was called to come and say goodbye and then they died." Did the church condemn the euthanasia of Jackie Kennedy? Or did god grant her the miracle of perfect timing? How much do the Kennedys contribute to the church?

But ROMAN tradition was that improper worship brought collective punishment so that is what Catholic Rome invoked as the justification for mass murder, doctrinal impurity.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline pope daniel

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« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2011, 03:08:12 AM »
psalms are jewish



Book burning in Berlin, May 1933.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 03:17:12 AM by pope daniel »
Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2011, 03:24:41 AM »
If all that were true what was the problem? They would have eliminated themselves in a couple generations.

Jews prefer it for OTHERS, not just themselves.  Tearing down social norms and mores, its what they do.


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And the Catholics murdered their preachers. Don't start a fight you can't finish. Fair is fair.
Jews nonsense. Life was valued, protected by Catholics.

Even at the height of the Inquisition, only 3,000 Jews were killed, and they were admitted Subverters and traitors. 
Of 150,000 trials, only 3,000 were put to death.
Meanwhile Jews wiuped out half of europe with the Black Plague.
And Protest-ants killed off 20 million American Indians, along with perptrating the 30 year War.



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But if what you say about them was true why did anyone bother trying to correct them as they would have eliminated themselves by their own practices. Was it better to kill them in combat than to let them die out by their own practices? What kind of stupidity is that?
Redundant question, you asked once and I answered.



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There was no one to be "saved" by combat. No living person was harmed by the beliefs. The only difference might be the public admission of euthanasia .
Beliefs are the basis for Jew control and why they seek to usurp all Church teaching.


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How much do the Kennedys contribute to the church?

They were largely secular, daddy a bottlegger.  Not a whole lot, other than Catholics feeling pride for having been the 1st Catholic in the White House, and he was Anti War and Anti Israel.


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But ROMAN tradition was that improper worship brought collective punishment so that is what Catholic Rome invoked as the justification for mass murder, doctrinal impurity.
There has never been an incidence of mass murder on the part of the Church unless you trust history written by Jews..
"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline FrankDialogue

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« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2011, 06:50:26 AM »


One more thought. I think the OT shoud be read. Especially the Pentateuch. I am woefully ignorant on the 4 Books of Kings. Something I need to get around to one of these days. The minor and major Prophetical Books are also very important. Minor meaning there is less text, not that they are less important. But, once one has a good understanding of the Pentateuch and the Mass, all a Catholic needs to really read are the Psalms and the New Testament. But the Psalms are vital. Just because the warmongering Jews interpret the Psalms in their idiotic way to justify their evil deeds does not mean we do. On the contrary, in fact I think of those creatures, the Jews, when I read about the wrath that is to come. Not by us, but by the hand of God if they do not repent. We are the new Israel after all.

And, FB, just to explain something to the unaware: What is the meaning/translation of 'Israel'? : It has absolutely nothing to do with 'Jews' or anything 'Jewish'...It simply means 'One who has struggled with God'...And this is what true Christians do: we struggle with God, trying to understand our role in His creation, and to play our proper part...As finite beings here, we struggle to understand, and the process is a dynamic one, and can take many forms.

Offline pope daniel

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« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2011, 07:22:58 AM »
And, FB, just to explain something to the unaware: What is the meaning/translation of 'Israel'?

does it have meaning in hebrew?


Book burning in Berlin, May 1933.
Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

Offline Father Brown

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« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2011, 03:13:23 PM »
And, FB, just to explain something to the unaware: What is the meaning/translation of 'Israel'? : It has absolutely nothing to do with 'Jews' or anything 'Jewish'...It simply means 'One who has struggled with God'...And this is what true Christians do: we struggle with God, trying to understand our role in His creation, and to play our proper part...As finite beings here, we struggle to understand, and the process is a dynamic one, and can take many forms.

Excellent point, Frank. But, I'm pretty sure it also means God's people. As in the 12 Tribes of Israel, and when the Covenant was revoked, and the veil was rent, it passed to Christ's Church. And we both know there is only one Church.

Offline pope daniel

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« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2011, 12:29:33 AM »
Excellent point, Frank. But, I'm pretty sure it also means God's people. As in the 12 Tribes of Israel, and when the Covenant was revoked, and the veil was rent, it passed to Christ's Church. And we both know there is only one Church.

what you worship the jews god? how did you get on this forum


Book burning in Berlin, May 1933.
Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

Offline clefty

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« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2011, 04:05:40 AM »
only 3,000 were put to death.

There has never been an incidence of mass murder on the part of the Church unless you trust history written by Jews..
which is it?

the 30 years war wiped out quite a few white europeans too Walt...and that was fought over jurisdiction and authority not even about theology or wether or not mass was held correctly...

rome wanted to keep the money flowing from northern europe and alot of people died to prevent it...

as for mass murders of europeans...you give the church a pass for every crusade? I dont.. including the modern crusades of WWI and WWII so that is a body count...

croatia comes to mind...

« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 04:13:46 AM by clefty »