Author Topic: Old Testament = Complete, Finished-All of it  (Read 8971 times)

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Offline wag

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« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2011, 06:17:15 PM »
HIS track record and teachings are pretty clear.

His track record has served jews.  His teachings have served jews.
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Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2011, 06:23:10 PM »
His track record has served jews.  His teachings have served jews.

Sure, and thats why they sought to Kill Him, and did...

Jews Try to Kill Paul in Jerusalem
Acts 21, top of page
27When the seven days were nearly over, some Jews from the province of Asia saw Paul at the temple. They stirred up the whole crowd and seized him, 28shouting, "Men of Israel, help us!
This is the man who teaches all men everywhere against our people and our law and this place.
And besides, he has brought Greeks into the temple area and defiled this holy place." 29(They had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with Paul and assumed that Paul had brought him into the temple area.)
30The whole city was aroused, and the people came running from all directions. Seizing Paul, they dragged him from the temple, and immediately the gates were shut.
31While they were trying to kill him, news reached the commander of the Roman troops that the whole city of Jerusalem was in an uproar.
 32He at once took some officers and soldiers and ran down to the crowd. When the rioters saw the commander and his soldiers, they stopped beating Paul


The Second Plot to Murder St. Paul
Acts Chapter 23, top of page
12The next morning the Jews formed a conspiracy and bound themselves with an oath not to eat or drink until they had killed Paul. 13More than forty men were involved in this plot. 14They went to the chief priests and elders and said, "We have taken a solemn oath not to eat anything until we have killed Paul. 15Now then, you and the Sanhedrin petition the commander to bring him before you on the pretext of wanting more accurate information about his case. We are ready to kill him before he gets here."
16 But when the son of Paul's sister heard of this plot, he went into the barracks and told Paul.
17Then Paul called one of the centurions and said, "Take this young man to the commander; he has something to tell him." 18So he took him to the commander.
The centurion said, "Paul, the prisoner, sent for me and asked me to bring this young man to you because he has something to tell you."
19The commander took the young man by the hand, drew him aside and asked, "What is it you want to tell me?"
20He said: "The Jews have agreed to ask you to bring Paul before the Sanhedrin tomorrow on the pretext of wanting more accurate information about him. 21Don't give in to them, because more than forty of them are waiting in ambush for him. They have taken an oath not to eat or drink until they have killed him. They are ready now, waiting for your consent to their request."
22The commander dismissed the young man and cautioned him, "Don't tell anyone that you have reported this to me."
23Then he called two of his centurions and ordered them, "Get ready a detachment of two hundred soldiers, seventy horsemen and two hundred spearmenB to go to Caesarea at nine tonight.
24Provide mounts for Paul so that he may be taken safely to Governor Felix."


Damascus Jews Try to Murder St. Paul, Acts 9

19and after taking some food, he regained his strength. Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus.
20At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.
21All those who heard him were astonished and asked, "Isn't he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn't he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?"
22Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Christ.

23After many days had gone by, the Jews conspired to kill him,
24but Saul learned of their plan. Day and night they kept close watch on the city gates in order to kill him.
25But his followers took him by night and lowered him in a basket through an opening in the wall

First Attempt of Jews in Jerusalem to Murder St. Paul, Acts 9,
26When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple.
27But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus.
 28So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord.
29He talked and debated with the Grecian Jews, but they tried to kill him.
30When the brothers learned of this, they took him down to Caesarea and sent him off to Tarsus.
"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2011, 06:28:31 PM »
Christ is a state of being, not a man. Muslims state that Jesus existed but he's not the 'physical' progeny of God, at least no more so than the rest of humanity.

In any case as far as I can see this conversation is pointless. I judge by works and thus far, on balance, Christians have done nothing for this world but hate, murder, kill and enslave. This seems to be a constant in ALL religions. So carry on worshiping myths and men. My faith is in God and the Golden Rule.


Nothing for the world?

+Except Magna Carta
+International Law
+Universities
+Hospitals
+Orphanges
+alvation Army & Feeding the Poor, Soup Kitchens in every city
+Fighting Off Saracen Muslims throughout Europe
+Spreading Christianity throughout the world in Peace,
+Forbiding usury,
+Promoting Family Values,
+Teaching the Value of Life,  Protecting Life.
+ Relief from the Barbarian invasions of the early middle ages
+ Rescued Christian and pre-christian literature
+ Condemned slavery since 1435
+ Spread agricultural and animal husbandry knowledge
+ Started and protected universities
+ Sponsored and supported science and medicine
+ Created International Law theory
+ Developed and sponsored modern economic theory
+ Invented charity as we know it
+ Codified, expanded, and improved Western Law
+ Developed Western Morality
+ Sponsored and influenced music, art and architecture
+ Developed the concept of unalienable rights



Id be interested in hearing from LW, what good exactly Atheists and agnostics have done for the world.

How many Orphanges, schools, hospitals to treat at no charge, Universities, Soup kitchens, donations and charities they sponsored, and poor theyve fed, clothed and educated?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 06:37:21 PM by WaltDisney »
"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline wag

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« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2011, 06:36:08 PM »
Sure, and thats why they sought to Kill Him, and did...

Jews Try to Kill Paul in Jerusalem

I thought you were talking about jesus.  Jesus has served jews too and also martyred by them.   There's a pattern of jews killing budding goy leaders.   But saul was a jew.  There is a pattern of jews staging their own death when they've peaked (amy winehouse).
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Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2011, 06:48:14 PM »
I thought you were talking about jesus.  Jesus has served jews too and also martyred by them.   There's a pattern of jews killing budding goy leaders.   But saul was a jew.  There is a pattern of jews staging their own death when they've peaked (amy winehouse).

Jesus served the Israelites..... Not Edomites, Not Khazars, Not Samaritans.

These groups were referred to as the 'Synagogue of Satan'.
"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline clefty

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« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2011, 07:00:03 PM »
Sure, and thats why they sought to Kill Him, and did...


yup joos hated Paul...he was running around preaching about the resurrection and bringing in those dirty nasty european gentiles by the bus load into their synagogues on sabbaths to preach to them

and was breaking bread with them on first of the sabbaths during passover and pentecost seasons...

he was giving the promise of abraham away to everybody...if they "established the law" of Jesus by following His example...in ALL things...




Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2011, 07:04:50 PM »


yup joos hated Paul...he was running around preaching about the resurrection and bringing in those dirty nasty european gentiles by the bus load into their synagogues on sabbaths to preach to them

and was breaking bread with them on first of the sabbaths during passover and pentecost seasons...

he was giving the promise of abraham away to everybody...if they "established the law" of Jesus by following His example...in ALL things...


ACTS 20:7
 And upon the first day of the week (SUNDAY-THE LORDS DAY, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached to them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.'


Nice try Perfidious Jew.

"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline clefty

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« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2011, 07:16:26 PM »


ACTS 20:7
 And upon the first day of the week (SUNDAY-THE LORDS DAY, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached to them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.'


Nice try Perfidious Jew.

An example of a literal translation of this verse may be found in the Concordant Literal New Testament (CLNT)[1]:

"Now on one of the sabbaths (mia ton sabbaton) at our having gathered to break bread, Paul argued (dialegetai=had a dialogue, or discussed) with them, being about to be off on the morrow. Besides, he prolonged the word (ie. his teaching) unto midnight (Saturday night).
 
In Vol. 35 of Word Bible Commentary (p. 1188), admission is made that “the first day of the week” literally means “one of the Sabbaths” in the Greek.   The truth of the matter is that there is no Greek-speaking linguistic scholar or professor who would deny this fact.  I myself have consulted numerous professors of Greek at prestigious universities (such as Dickenson College in Carlisle, PA) who have confirmed the literal meaning of this phrase.  We will prove in this chapter that “first day of the week” is a misrepresentation of the Greek.
 
Therefore, the mass hypnosis that intellectually transforms this phrase into something other than its literal meaning happens on the presumption that it is an idiomatic expression– “mia/one” being used for “first,” and “sabbaton” being using for “week,” and “day” being thrown in just so they can make sense out of their non-literal invention.  However, I have yet to find one commentary or lexicon citing an example of mia ton sabbaton being used idiomatically outside the Bible in other Greek writings.  Therefore, if it is a figure of speech, prove it.  The burden of proof is on the translators.  This they cannot do lexicologically.  They must resort to arguments based on Church traditions that were not in place until Constantine."
http://www.todd-derstine.com/americaspropheticdestiny/is-the-phrase-%e2%80%9cfirst-day-of-the-week%e2%80%9d-properly-translated-in-the-new-testament/


so the better translation from the greek is "first of the sabbaths"... first sabbath of the seven sabbaths between passover and pentecost

the bread they broke was UNLEAVENED...no mention of fruit of the vine or eucharist or Luke/Paul would have written it...and Paul TRAVELLED on sunday...is that a way for a former pharisee to show reverance to the new holy day...

oh he was travelling to celebrate PENTECOST in Jerusalem...see Walt? OT was still binding...

back to your vomit dog...
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 08:18:29 PM by clefty »

Offline wag

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« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2011, 04:43:11 AM »
Jesus served the Israelites..... Not Edomites, Not Khazars, Not Samaritans.

These groups were referred to as the 'Synagogue of Satan'.

I was more talking about his legacy, not who he served, but how his following has been exploited by jews to foment divisions.  Also, jesus tells us to love them, and they must laugh at that one.
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Offline clefty

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« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2011, 03:44:47 PM »
I was more talking about his legacy, not who he served, but how his following has been exploited by jews to foment divisions.  Also, jesus tells us to love them, and they must laugh at that one.

yup you are right.... he told us to not only to "love our neighbor" which is in the OT law, but amplified it to "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES...

pray for those that persecute you...forgive them...know you will be mocked and scorned and put to death for MY name's sake..."

the OT law was revalidated by Jesus who increased its coverage "thou shalt not kill" became "you kill when you are angry at someone"...wow...

that is a huge reaffirmation to the intent of the OT law

what Jesus added is EASY when one is living the Way and filled with the Spirit... there is not much here on earth worth fighting for certainly not worth breaking God's commandments and/or His promises...

but "thou shalt NOT kill" and "love your enemy" are not good "art of war" tactics and certainly not appealing to those seeking power and world corporate religious state...you know God's kingdom on earth...

which the JOOS have waited for too...and missed the whole point of the OT

but youre right they now use gullible Christians who do NOT keep God's Laws as tools...

Jesus put Joos in their place...we can too...but we must be wise as serpants...harmless as doves...

Joos love to hear christians say the OT law is dead no longer binding...and/or merely for Joos...

that gives them all sorts of wiggle room

Offline wag

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« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2011, 04:47:21 PM »
yup you are right.... he told us to not only to "love our neighbor" which is in the OT law, but amplified it to "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES...

pray for those that persecute you...forgive them...know you will be mocked and scorned and put to death for MY name's sake..."

the OT law was revalidated by Jesus who increased its coverage "thou shalt not kill" became "you kill when you are angry at someone"...wow...

that is a huge reaffirmation to the intent of the OT law

what Jesus added is EASY when one is living the Way and filled with the Spirit... there is not much here on earth worth fighting for certainly not worth breaking God's commandments and/or His promises...

but "thou shalt NOT kill" and "love your enemy" are not good "art of war" tactics and certainly not appealing to those seeking power and world corporate religious state...you know God's kingdom on earth...

which the JOOS have waited for too...and missed the whole point of the OT

but youre right they now use gullible Christians who do NOT keep God's Laws as tools...

Jesus put Joos in their place...we can too...but we must be wise as serpants...harmless as doves...

Joos love to hear christians say the OT law is dead no longer binding...and/or merely for Joos...

that gives them all sorts of wiggle room

I don't care about wiggle room.   We need to remove them from our midst.  They just poison everything.
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Offline clefty

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« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2011, 03:49:02 AM »
I don't care about wiggle room.   We need to remove them from our midst.  They just poison everything.

they are not in my midst...sorry about your situation...

funny thing about snakes they like to be left alone...

even parasites develope our immune systems

just be mindful keep the balance have antedotes and be immune... :)


funny thing here at Freedom Portal for as much as you wish to remove the joo...you focus on them continually

and build them up

they already told you they will use your anti semitism against you and for their own gain...but you persist

how is that removing them?

some here claim the OT is over, its laws are not to be kept and yet still want the promise of abraham and claim to be the new israel...and continue to work for new JOOrusalem's NWO sorry, I meant universal corporate state of justice

that alone keeps them in our midst

Offline wag

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« Reply #52 on: September 02, 2011, 04:51:33 AM »
they are not in my midst...sorry about your situation...

funny thing about snakes they like to be left alone...

even parasites develope our immune systems

just be mindful keep the balance have antedotes and be immune... :)


funny thing here at Freedom Portal for as much as you wish to remove the joo...you focus on them continually

and build them up

they already told you they will use your anti semitism against you and for their own gain...but you persist

how is that removing them?

some here claim the OT is over, its laws are not to be kept and yet still want the promise of abraham and claim to be the new israel...and continue to work for new JOOrusalem's NWO sorry, I meant universal corporate state of justice

that alone keeps them in our midst

We regulars here are not trying to figure out jews (although knowing them, we do try to figure what they are planning next for us).  The main thing here is to educate those (beyond the choir) who do not know them and how they work.  Jews say they are a religion (beyond being an inbred race); well, then to be against this sick religion of theirs is also a religion of sorts.  So we do preach here a bit on that.
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Offline FrankDialogue

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« Reply #53 on: September 02, 2011, 10:35:42 AM »

Nothing for the world?

+Except Magna Carta
+International Law
+Universities
+Hospitals
+Orphanges
+alvation Army & Feeding the Poor, Soup Kitchens in every city
+Fighting Off Saracen Muslims throughout Europe
+Spreading Christianity throughout the world in Peace,
+Forbiding usury,
+Promoting Family Values,
+Teaching the Value of Life,  Protecting Life.
+ Relief from the Barbarian invasions of the early middle ages
+ Rescued Christian and pre-christian literature
+ Condemned slavery since 1435
+ Spread agricultural and animal husbandry knowledge
+ Started and protected universities
+ Sponsored and supported science and medicine
+ Created International Law theory
+ Developed and sponsored modern economic theory
+ Invented charity as we know it
+ Codified, expanded, and improved Western Law
+ Developed Western Morality
+ Sponsored and influenced music, art and architecture
+ Developed the concept of unalienable rights





Thanks, Walt...I would just add that, to put it in a nutshell, Christianity has given us the Western civilization that we are here on the forum notice is in danger, and are concerned about trying to protect...It wasn't Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics or any other 'ists' who gave us Western Civilization.

While we may have criticisms of the way things are playing out now, perhaps the haters would prefer to be in Zimbabwe, Saudi Arabia, Burma or Israel...You won't find too much Christianity to complain about in those lands.

Offline Rudi

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« Reply #54 on: September 02, 2011, 11:17:27 AM »
Thanks, Walt...I would just add that, to put it in a nutshell, Christianity has given us the Western civilization that we are here on the forum notice is in danger, and are concerned about trying to protect...It wasn't Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics or any other 'ists' who gave us Western Civilization.

Here again a claim is made that may or may not be true, yet made without anything to back it up other than a presumption that because some priests with crosses and cossacks were begging across the land that the people managed to develop civilization. Considering the persecution by the church of many of the leading lights of the enlightenment, as an example, the veracity of such a claim is seriously to be doubted. Your appeal here is to gain a credit by association, certainly not by evidence. So religion brought us morality, charity, steam engines and light bulbs? Is that why they tithe the people? Did they forget to patent things?

Quote
While we may have criticisms of the way things are playing out now, perhaps the haters would prefer to be in Zimbabwe, Saudi Arabia, Burma or Israel...You won't find too much Christianity to complain about in those lands.

What haters? Do you really think that the religious dogmatists here are worthy of the time and preoccupation necessary for hate? So along with a lot of unsubstantiated self-flattery in your comments you choose to insult those who are amused by such egotistical remarks.

As to Walt's list I see nothing there that I would attribute to the church. I do see a lot of things the church took credit for. The Magna Charta... that anyone would think that the Church was in favor of such a 'radical' document beggars belief. Most everything in that list are natural, common aspirations and values that were practiced well before the Church eradicated the Druids and took over their knowledge as its own.

But hey, if it makes you Christians feel good, who am I to argue with delusions of grandeur?
Suspend all belief. Get the facts ~ Rudi
No one rules if no one obeys ~ Lao Tzu

Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #55 on: September 02, 2011, 02:00:55 PM »
'We were the ones who created Europe.''

 Never were truer words said.

From the role of the monks (they did much more than just copy manuscripts) to art and architecture, from the university to Western law, from science to charitable work, from international law to economics.

For example, Catholic charity was something new under the sun.
To be sure, the ancient world had its share of liberality toward the poor, but most ancient giving was self-interested rather than purely gratuitous. The buildings that the wealthy financed featured their own names in prominent display.
 
Donors gave what they did either in order to put the recipients in their debt or in order to call attention to themselves and their great liberality. That those in need were to be served with a cheerful heart and provided for without thought of reward or reciprocity was certainly not the governing principle.
And there was nothing in the ancient world that corresponded to the Church’s insistence on the sacredness of human life — which is why it was churchmen who played a decisive role in abolishing such terrible offenses as infanticide and gladiatorial contests.

According to W.E.H. Lecky, who was frequently a harsh critic of the Church, there can be “no question that neither in practice nor in theory, neither in the institutions that were founded nor in the place that was assigned to it in the scale of duties, did charity in antiquity occupy a position at all comparable to that which it has obtained by Christianity.”


A Scientific Mind
How many people realize that the father of geology was a Catholic priest, Fr. Nicholas Steno? Or that the father of Egyptology was Fr. Athanasius Kircher?
Or that Fr. Giambattista Riccioli was the first person to measure the rate of acceleration of a freely falling body?
Or that to this day 35 craters on the moon are named after Jesuit astronomers and mathematicians?
Or that beginning in the seventeenth century the Jesuits took Western science all over the world, even to such far-off places as India and China?
Or that the Basilica of San Petronio in Bologna, which was constructed to be one of the most precise solar observatories in the world, was used by Catholic astronomer Giovanni Cassini to confirm Johannes Kepler’s suggestion that planetary orbits were elliptical rather than circular?
Hundreds of little-known facts like these are just waiting to be rediscovered.

The university, which developed and matured at the height of Catholic Europe, was a new phenomenon in European history.
Nothing like it had existed in ancient Greece or Rome.
The institution that we recognize today, with its faculties, courses of study, examinations, and degrees, as well as the familiar distinction between undergraduate and graduate study, comes to us directly from the medieval world.

And it is no surprise that the Church should have done so much to foster the nascent university system since, according to historian Lowrie Daly, it was “the only institution in Europe that showed consistent interest in the preservation and cultivation of knowledge.” Another historian contends that the universities’ “most consistent and greatest protector was the Pope of Rome.
He it was who granted, increased, and protected their privileged status in a world of often conflicting jurisdictions.”

The tradition of intellectual debate and scholarly exchange to which the university system gave birth would prove enormously influential in the life of the West.
Consider these observations by Edward Grant, a modern historian of science:


    What made it possible for Western civilization to develop science and the social sciences in a way that no other civilization had ever done before?
The answer, I am convinced, lies in a pervasive and deep-seated spirit of inquiry that was a natural consequence of the emphasis on reason that began in the Middle Ages. With the exception of revealed truths, reason was enthroned in medieval universities as the ultimate arbiter for most intellectual arguments and controversies.

 It was quite natural for scholars immersed in a university environment to employ reason to probe into subject areas that had not been explored before, as well as to discuss possibilities that had not previously been seriously entertained.

The creation of the university, the commitment to reason and rational argument, and the overall spirit of inquiry that characterized medieval intellectual life amounted to what Grant called, “a gift from the Latin Middle Ages to the modern world…though it is a gift that may never be acknowledged.
Perhaps it will always retain the status it has had for the past four centuries as the best-kept secret of Western civilization.”


In the Name of the Law

Western law is also indebted to the Church.
When the fledgling nations of western Europe began cobbling together coherent legal systems in the twelfth century, what did they use as a model?
The Church’s canon law, Europe’s first modern legal system.

In a world in which custom rather than statutory law ruled so much of both the ecclesiastical and secular domains, Gratian and other canonists developed criteria, based on reason and conscience, for determining the validity of given customs, and held up the idea of a pre-political natural law to which any legitimate custom had to confirm.

Scholars of Church law showed the barbarized West how to take a patchwork of custom, statutory law, and countless other sources, and produce from them a coherent legal order whose structure was internally consistent and in which previously existing contradictions were synthesized or otherwise resolved.

Twelfth-century European jurists, in the process of assembling modern legal systems for the emerging states of Western Europe, were thus indebted to canon law as a model of what they themselves were trying to accomplish.

Equally important was the content of canon law, whose scope was so sweeping that it ended up contributing to the development of Western law in such areas as marriage, property, and inheritance.
Legal scholar Harold Berman cites “the introduction of rational trial procedures to replace magical mechanical modes of proof by ordeals of fire and water, by battles of champions, and by ritual oaths [all of which had played a central role in Germanic folklaw]; the insistence upon consent as the foundation of marriage and upon wrongful intent as the basis or crime; [and] the development of equity to protect the poor and helpless against the rich and powerful.”

Where did the idea of international law come from?
Again from the heart of the Church,
this time with the work of sixteenth-century theologians working in Spanish universities. In particular it was Father Francisco de Vitoria who, along with the Dutch Protestant Hugo Grotius, can claim the title of “father of international law.”
When he observed the behavior of his country in the New World, he became convinced that impartial moral rules governing the interaction of states must be developed. According to international law expert James Brown Scott, Vitoria “furnished the world of his day with its first masterpiece on the law of nations in peace as well as in war.”



Nice try, but eat your words, LW....
"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline EyeBelieve

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« Reply #56 on: September 02, 2011, 03:28:44 PM »

LaRouche constantly mentions German Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa as being a pillar of science.  Nicholas is of course ignored by conventional science education in favor of frauds like Newton & Galileo.

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« Reply #57 on: September 02, 2011, 06:37:03 PM »
Nice try, but eat your words, LW....

I hardly think so Walt. A few kudos for a handful of men who read the ancients isn't gonna cut it. The Church was a parasite and self interest was it's guiding light. Merely stating the opposite isn't going to make it so. Western civilization would have developed far more rapidly without the parasite... and along lines of truth (which did not require papal indulgences) rather than ecclesiastic bumbling which monopolized learning so that anyone with an inquisitive mind had no choice but to become a priest.

Besides exporting all that 'knowledge' to the far flung places across the world let's not forget that first the Church destroyed their observatories, science and learning beforehand. As to international 'law'... now there's a real success story.

My point being that over the long run the church was a far greater impediment to civilization's advance than a boon as you seem to think it is. But of course I'm a hater and a heretic and should be burned at one of the many stakes planted alongside the many flags of imperialism so dear to the charitable and loving Church.
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Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #58 on: September 02, 2011, 07:06:50 PM »
I hardly think so Walt. A few kudos for a handful of men who read the ancients isn't gonna cut it.
You have nothing to counter with other than conjecture crapola.
Sorry, yours aint cutting it.


Quote
The Church was a parasite and self interest was it's guiding light. Merely stating the opposite isn't going to make it so.
Self Interest?
The entire basis OF International Law in peace and war, Came directly FROM The Catholic Church.
The notion of Unalienable and inalienable rights, come from Only ONE source..The Church.


Were it not for Catholicism the great works of Virgil, Augustine, Plato, Aristotle, and other classics of antiquity would have either been destroyed or lost or forgotten altogether.

Protestantism, Islam and Judaism did not invent freedom or the idea that man had natural and Unalienable rights (as well as property rights and the economic system called free market based on real money) the Catholic Church did though through her theology, evidenced by Magna Carta, Laws of Inheritance and Foundations of International Law & Sovereignty.






Quote
Western civilization would have developed far more rapidly without the parasite... and along lines of truth (which did not require papal indulgences) rather than ecclesiastic bumbling which monopolized learning so that anyone with an inquisitive mind had no choice but to become a priest.
More hypothetical conjecture with nothing to prove your point. 
Weak at best, pathetic at worst.



Quote
Besides exporting all that 'knowledge' to the far flung places across the world let's not forget that first the Church destroyed their observatories, science and learning beforehand. As to international 'law'... now there's a real success story.
If any of this were true, it might be valid, but right now, its good comedy.



Quote
My point being that over the long run the church was a far greater impediment to civilization's advance than a boon as you seem to think it is. But of course I'm a hater and a heretic and should be burned at one of the many stakes planted alongside the many flags of imperialism so dear to the charitable and loving Church.
Yes, we shouldve placed Jews in charge from the get go.
Infanticide, Slavery, Usury, Feminism, No International Law or Sovereignty...all good things.
Got it.


Artifacts and Art (from Titian, Michaelangelo, Paruzzi, Salvador Dali, Da Vinci, Picasso, and Corregg-Baroque), Churches, Castles, Monasteries, Cathedrals, Basilicas in Catholic Europe and The Vatican, that have withstood centuries of abuse and war, and are still admired as the greatest works in history, attracting millions of visitors yearly.


Youre talking foolishly denying all that is so easily evident, which troubles me, as your an educated man, with either a grudge or axe to grind that prohibits you from seeing with a clear lens..the truth.




'The Reformation was "a devastation of England, which was at the time when this event took place, the happiest country, perhaps, that the world had ever seen; but afterwards marched on plundering, devastating, and inflicting torments on the people, and shedding their innocent blood; abbeys, priories, nunneries, hospitals and other religious foundations were confiscated by the Reformers and Jews, who brought to England the misery of pauperism "

-William Cobbett, Protestant Author-A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland, 1763-1834

« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 07:40:21 PM by WaltDisney »
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Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #59 on: September 02, 2011, 07:23:02 PM »
Catholic Scientists..

Hugh of St. Victor    c. 1096-1141                    theologian of science
Roger Bacon             c. 1220-1292               Doctor Mirabiles
Dietrich von Frieberg  c. 1250-c. 1310       the priest who solved the mystery of the rainbow
Thomas Bradwardine  c. 1290-1349       student of motion
Nicole Oresme           c. 1320-1382          inventor of scientific graphic techniques
Nicholas of Cusa    1401-1464                grappler with infinity
Georgias Agricola    1495-1555              founder of metallurgy
Johannes Baptista van Helmont            founder of pneumatic chemistry
Francesco Maria Grimaldi    1618-1663     discoverer of the diffraction of light
Robert Boyle    1627-1691                    founder of modern chemistry

Antonie van Leeuwenhoek                    discoverer of bacteria
Niels Seno    1638-1686                     founder of geology


Fleming- Penecillin
Antoine Lavoisier       
Count Alessandro Volta




More Famous Catholic Scientists:

Johannes Gutenber-Printing Press 1400-1468    
Leonardo da Vinci-Painter but what the hell    1452-1519    
Nicolas Copernicus    1473-1543    
Andreas Vesalius
Roger Bacon
Galileo
Copernicus                 the Heliocentric Universe
Marcello Malpighi    Microscopic Anatomy
Enrico Fermi             Atomic Physics
Marie Curie             Radioactivity
Erwin Schrodinger    Wave Mechanics
Antoine Laurent Lavoisier    the Revolution in Chemistry




Nicolas Steno (1638-1686) - Contributions to paleontology and geology

Roger Joseph (1711-1787) - Physicist, astronomer, mathematician, philosopher, diplomat, poet, and Jesuit. He is famous for his atomic theory, given as a clear, precisely-formulated system utilizing principles of Newtonian mechanics.
This work inspired Michael Faraday to develop field theory for electromagnetic interaction, and was even a basis for Albert Einstein's attempts for a unified field theory, according to Einstein's coworker Lancelot Law Whyte.
Boscovich also gave many important contributions to astronomy, including the first geometric procedure for determining the equator of a rotating planet from three observations of a surface feature and for computing the orbit of a planet from three observations of its position.

Maria Gaetana Agnesi (1718–1799) - Linguist, mathematician, and philosopher. Agnesi is credited with writing the first book discussing both differential and integral calculus. She was an honorary member of the faculty at the University of Bologna.

Augustin Louis Cauchy (1789–1857) - French mathematician. He started the project of formulating and proving the theorems of calculus in a rigorous manner and was thus an early pioneer of analysis.
He also gave several important theorems in complex analysis and initiated the study of permutation groups. A profound mathematician, Cauchy exercised by his perspicuous and rigorous methods a great influence over his contemporaries and successors. His writings cover the entire range of mathematics and mathematical physics.

Gregor Mendel (1822–1884)
- Augustinian priest and scientist often called the "father of modern genetics" for his study of the inheritance of traits in pea plants. Mendel showed that the inheritance of traits follows particular laws, which were later named after him. The significance of Mendel's work was not recognised until the turn of the 20th century. Its rediscovery prompted the foundation of genetics.

Louis Pasteur (1822-1895)
- French chemist best known for his remarkable breakthroughs in microbiology. His experiments confirmed the germ theory of disease, and he created the first vaccine for rabies. He is best known to the general public for showing how to stop milk and wine from going sour - this process came to be called pasteurization.
He is regarded as one of the three main founders of bacteriology, together with Ferdinand Cohn and Robert Koch. He also made many discoveries in the field of chemistry, most notably the asymmetry of crystals.


Francesco Faà di Bruno (1825—1888)
 - Italian mathematician most linked to Turin. He is known for Faà di Bruno's formula and being a spiritual writer beatified in 1988.


Armand David (1826–1900)
 - Catholic missionary to China and member of the Lazarists who considered his religious duties to be his principle concern. He was also a botanist with the author abbreviation David and as a zoologist he described several species new to the West.

Pierre Duhem (1861–1916) - He worked on Thermodynamic potentials and wrote histories advocating that the Roman Catholic Church helped advance science.

E. T. Whittaker (1873-1956) - Converted to Catholicism in 1930 and member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences.
His 1946 Donnellan Lecture was entitled on Space and Spirit. Theories of the Universe and the Arguments for the Existence of God. He also received the Copley Medal and had written on Mathematical physics before conversion.

Georges Lemaître (1894-1966)
- Catholic priest, honorary prelate, professor of physics and astronomer. Lemaître proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory of the origin of the Universe, although he called it his 'hypothesis of the primeval atom'. He was a pioneer in applying Einstein's theory of general relativity to cosmology: suggesting a pre-cursor of Hubble's law in 1927, and publishing his primeval atom theory the pages of Nature in 1931.

Carlos Chagas Filho (1910-2000) - A neuroscientist from Rio de Janeiro who headed the Pontifical Academy of Sciences for 16 years. He studied the Shroud of Turin and his "the Origin of the Universe", "the Origin of Life", and "the Origin of Man" involved an understanding between Catholicism and Science.





Yes indeed LW,  The Catholic Church definately stifled progress...rolls eyes


« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 07:34:28 PM by WaltDisney »
"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress