Author Topic: Old Testament = Complete, Finished-All of it  (Read 8969 times)

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Offline Jan Robertson

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« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2011, 07:19:38 PM »
Enough with Judaic nonsense.

Clearly you are the one espousing Judaic nonsense. You obviously place more importance in the Judaic "excuses" than in good english logic..

   
Quote
Clearly the word Elohim, when it refers to YHWH, is an majestic plural which is numerically singular, having a singular verb and a singular adjective.
This majestic plural is simply a grammatical form that denotes greatness without any implication that the object itself is a plurality or multiplicity.
If one maintains that Elohim implies multiplicity, then we must concede that Moses was also a multiplicity along with Kemosh, the pagan deity of the Moabites and Milkom, the pagan deity of the Amonites.

For the benefit of others:
The Hebrew word for God is Elohim.
Elohim ends with the masculine plural suffix "-ִים" From this we might conclude that Elohim signifies a numerical plural (i.e. denoting multiplicity) and translate it accordingly as gods.
But before we determine whether the world was created by a single God or multiple gods, we must consider whether Elohim is really a numerical plural.

In Hebrew, a numerically plural noun has three characteristics:

   1. It receives a plural suffix;
   2. It receives a plural verb;
   3. It receives a plural adjective.

      The first characteristic, the plural suffix, is familiar to the English speaker. In English, most nouns have the plural suffix "s" or "es". For example, dog is the singular while dogs is the plural. Hebrew adds another dimension by matching adjectives and verbs to the noun. In Hebrew, a plural noun gets a plural verb and plural adjective. In contrast, English verbs and adjectives do not change to match the noun. For example, in English:

        Singular: The big dog guarded.

        Plural: The big dogs guarded.

But in Hebrew:

        Singular: The big (sg) dog (he) guarded. שָׁמַר  הַכֶּלֶב  הַגָּדוֹל

        Plural: The big (pl) dogs (they) guarded. שָׁמְרוּ  הַכְּלָבִים  הַגְּדוֹלִים

      So the first thing we must check about Elohim is whether it gets a plural adjective and plural verb, because this will tell us whether or not it is a numerical plural denoting multiplicity. In the very first verse of the Torah we read בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים meaning "Elohim (he) created".
Were Elohim a numerical plural, the verse would have to say בָּרְאוּ אֱלֹהִים "Elohim (they) created". Indeed, the word Elohim appears in its plural form over 2000 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures and in virtually every instance it has a singular verb. It is always "And Elohim (he) spoke to Moses " and never "And Elohim (they) spoke to Moses ". The same thing can be found with the adjective.
The adjective for Elohim is singular, not plural. Thus we find אֱלֹהִים צַדִּיק "righteous (sg) Elohim" (Ps 7:10) and not אֱלֹהִים צַדִּיקִים "righteous (pl) Elohim".

Hebrew muliplicity! ... Have you not learned anything of their 'duplicity'? and the way they explain all their agendas.

English s or es  to define the meaning of plurals and singulars also has 's to define the singular that denotes belonging as in Adam's apple OR apples. So simple so precise. Genisis 1:1 "In the beginning ELOHIM (pl) created heaven (singular) and earth (singular).

To see how they manipulate their language read this from wiki and see for yourself how they confuse and addle meanings of individual words that makes reading THEIR bible an almost impossiblity ... let alone a believable journal through history.

 
Quote
So why does Elohim have a plural suffix if it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective? It turns out there is a special type of plural in Hebrew that has a plural suffix even though it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective. These nouns are called majestic plurals. The meaning of the plural suffix in the majestic plural is not that there is more than one of the noun, but that the noun is "great, absolute, or majestic". For example, אָדוֹן means "master" while אֲדוֹנִים (Isa 19:4; Mal 1:6) with the masculine plural suffix means "great master, lord".
Thus we read, "I will imprison the Egyptians in the hand of a harsh lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them" (Isa 19:4). In this verse the fierce king that will enslave Egypt is described as an ?ֲדֹנִים קָשֶׁה "a harsh (sg) lord (pl)". In this verse, the plural suffix attached to the word ?ֲדֹנִים does not make it a numerical plural ("masters") but instead magnifies the meaning ("great master, lord").
Because אֲדֹנִים is a majestic plural it receives the singular adjective קָשֶׁה (harsh) and not the plural adjective קָשִׁים that would be required for a numerical plural. The word בַּעַל also means "master" while בְּעָלִים with the masculine plural suffix means "great master, owner". For example, in Exodus 21 the owner of the "goring ox" is repeatedly referred to as the בְּעָלִים "owner".
 The word בְּעָלִים has the plural suffix even though the ox is only owned by one person. In this case, the plural suffix magnifies the noun imbuing it with a connotation of "absolute owner, complete master".
Because בְּעָלִים "owner" is a majestic plural it gets a singular verb. Thus we read concerning the negligent owner whose ox has killed, "the ox shall be stoned and the owner (he) will be put to death" (Ex 21:29).
The verb ?וּמָת meaning "he will be put to death" is in the singular even though the word for "owner" בְּעָלִים has the plural suffix. The common characteristic of majestic plurals is that they have the plural suffix while denoting singular objects and as a result they receive singular adjectives and singular verbs. Elohim is quite simply an example of the majestic plural and means "great God".

      It is worth noting that the word Elohim is not always a majestic plural.
When referring to the pagan gods, the term Elohim is usually a numerical plural. For example, the second commandment forbids us to worship אֱלֹהִים  אֲחֵרִים "other (pl) gods". In this phrase, not only does Elohim have the plural suffix, but it receives a plural adjective אֲחֵרִים other (pl). This tells us that in the second commandment Elohim is used not as an majestic plural but as a numerical plural denoting multiplicity.
 The prohibition is not against a specific "other (sg) god" but against any "other (pl) gods". Elohim is used numerous times throughout the Tanach to refer to pagan gods and in most of these instances it is a numerical plural denoting multiple (false) gods. So we see that when the Tanach speaks about YHWH it uses Elohim as the majestic plural meaning "great God" but when it speaks about pagan gods it uses Elohim as a numerical plural meaning "gods". In both instances the accompanying verbs and adjectives reveal to us which meaning is intended.

      Does the majestic plural form of Elohim implies that there is anything multiple about God? To help clarify this it is worth looking at the few instances where the majestic plural form of Elohim is used to refer to someone other than YHWH. The clearest example of this is in Exodus 7:1.
In this passage YHWH tells Moses that he will make him an Elohim to Pharaoh: "Behold I have made you an Elohim to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet" (Exodus 7:1).
Certainly this does not mean that YHWH made Moses into a god, but rather that he would speak to Pharaoh with authority through Aaron who would serve as his mouth-piece in the way that the prophets serve as the mouth-pieces of YHWH. In any event, there is clearly nothing multiple about Moses, even though he was made an Elohim to Pharaoh.

      On rare occasions Elohim is used as majestic plural even when referring to pagan gods. For example,
"And they bowed down to Ashtoret the Elohim of the Sidonians, to Kemosh the Elohim of Moab, and to Milkom the Elohim of the children of Amon." (1Ki 11:33). Here we see three pagan deities each of which is referred to as an Elohim. Obviously the book of Kings is not saying that any of these false deities is a "great God". On the contrary, the verse goes on to rebuke the Israelites for worshipping them.

The meaning is that the Sidonians, Moabites, and Ammonites looked upon their deities as great Gods and in this instance Scripture employs the terms used by the pagans themselves to refer to their own deities. At the same time we must observe that Ashtoret, Kemosh, and Milkom are each referred to as Elohim even though there is nothing multiple about any one of them.

This hebrew claptrap is a pure mind boggling enigma and shows how easy it is to convey entirely different scenarios of history.

I'm amazed at the amount of Christians who acctually believe the judaic minefield that represents the bible.

As for the NT it could never have been written without the existance of the OT. Without Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and David the NT would be perceived as fiction (which it undoubtably is).

God "The Creator" is the intelligent Consciousness. We were created to contain ALL the answers for ourselves, via intelligence, and conscience ... To respect and pay honour our one true creator we need to listen to our inner voice and use the tools given us to make the right choices ... OUR God meant for us to be free thinkers with freewill to choose our own paths, not to be chatels and led by a nose ring like cattle.

The nose ring is the bible.

You people are peddling Jewish propaganda in order to preserve your belief in the JEWISH bible and to explain your beliefs via the hebrew language, instead of having 'faith' in a far more logical and honest God.

You can't get more Jewish than that.

 
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Offline Sue

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« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2011, 07:29:40 PM »
Misty,

Quote
I'm amazed at the amount of Christians who actually believe the Judaic minefield that represents the bible.

They don't call it 'Judeo-Christianity' for nothing....



 
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline Jan Robertson

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« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2011, 07:47:35 PM »
Misty,

They don't call it 'Judeo-Christianity' for nothing....

Yeah! Sad isn't it, most Christians even deny it, yet is as plain ase the nose on their faces.

It's also what has led us into these 'final wars' by taking away our 'soveriegnty'.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2011, 06:14:26 AM »
Earth to Bozo.

Divorce was not part of the 10 Commandments and Gods law.

MOSES Changed the law of divorce.

Christ changed it back to its proper context.

Walt Disney upset Bozo. Bozo sad.

The first five books are called The LAW, Torah in the original Aramaic. You give a quote talking about the law which is the Torah. Specifically you quote saying it was a law of MOSES. So what you quoted has nothing to do with the Big Ten. (I leave it to the believer to come up with some fanciful imagining as to how the common Galilean dialect of Aramaic recalled from memory by the uneducated and illiterate managed to get into educated, not Koine, Greek without error.)

The idea that Moses changed something was clearly an incomprehensible thing to say as the only claim to law before Moses are the Noatic laws which are also silent on divorce. Clearly there was nothing to change -- unless there was something which does not make sense unless one sees the Septuagint along with Moses the Lawgiver as a recent invention in the 1st c. AD. If one does not like the recent invention idea then there was nothing to change and therefore the words are nonsense -- see translation problem as above.

As to silence, consider the Judeans were polygamists without apology or invoking exception. This is not a secret. Some orthodox in Israel are calling to legalize it to rid the country of one more Christian influence. So if it makes Walt Disney feel better saying the law on divorce was changed Walt Disney must recognize that polygamy was not prohibited and the Mosaic silence and the Jesus silence on that subject means polygamy remains lawful.

Bozo feel better now.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2011, 06:22:18 AM »
Had nothing to do with good coming in 4s.

Had to do with consistency, efficacy, and truth and authenticity.

So there were 4 Gospels that were chosen for the Bible.

I regret you are unfamiliar with the foundations of your own religion as to why there are only four.

The gospel of Peter is more consistent with Matthew, Luke and John than Mark. If consistency were an issue then Mark with only one year of ministry and no resurrection just an empty tomb for unstated reasons would not be included.

However I remind you
Quote
Had to do with consistency, efficacy, and truth and authenticity.
is solely your invention as there is no surviving record of the reasons for selection.

Pardon if Bozo reject the imaginary reasons invented by Walt Disney and sticks with the facts as known and accepts there are many things which are unknown which cannot be divined by Walt Disney.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 07:09:05 AM by Iron Webmaster »
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2011, 06:59:29 AM »
Enough with Judaic nonsense.

It is the Septuagint which is of Greek origin. But it was adopted by the Judeans and the Galileans/Christians as authoritative. Bozo is only following groundrules used by Walt Disney.

Quote
    Clearly the word Elohim, when it refers to YHWH, is an majestic plural which is numerically singular, having a singular verb and a singular adjective.

As we know neither Aramaic nor the religious pidgin of Aramaic and Greek called Hebrew requires subject and verb to agree on either number or gender. Besides Elohim is one pantheon so it is hardly worth pursuing.

Quote
This majestic plural is simply a grammatical form that denotes greatness without any implication that the object itself is a plurality or multiplicity.

There is nothing majestic about the plural and it first appears in history used by Queen Victoria which is a bit late for this fanciful explanation you are weaving. Of course you are invited to produce third example of it in all of recorded history should you have a mind to do so.

Quote
If one maintains that Elohim implies multiplicity, then we must concede that Moses was also a multiplicity along with Kemosh, the pagan deity of the Moabites and Milkom, the pagan deity of the Amonites.

Whatever gave you the idea the Judean gods were any different from the neighboring gods? Look at all the problems you make for yourself when you pretend they are different.

Quote
For the benefit of others:

The subject is the false translation of two words, Yahweh Elohim. It is not of Elohim separately. It is simply a way of distinguishing a person named Yahweh from a god name Yahweh, Yahweh of the Gods. The issue is the FALSE translation as LORD God. A rational response would start by establishing Yahweh means LORD, as in Adoni, meaning a person of superior social rank.

Regarding the separate use of El singular which is not the subject -- it is clearly used to refer to a single god. There is no usage of Elohim to refer to a single god. In fact it is used to refer to the God of Hosts which some want to take as a title of Yahweh.

There is NOTHING in the OT to contraindicate Elohim being plural so there is no need to try to dismiss the fact that it is plural. There is no evidence in the OT that Yahweh was other than a cult to one of many gods in the local culture. The religion of the priests of the Yahweh cult is not the religion of the people.

From archaeology and history we know the people of Judea worshipped both Astarte and Yahweh. And we know neighboring regions also worshipped god and goddess pairs. We know Yahweh goes back at least to Ugarit in the 11th c. BC. Astarte is Ishtar, Ashara, "Strato," Isis and Aphrodite. We know the non-priests used both Yahweh and Ashara on their funerary inscriptions. We have mass produced statues of Ashara. We have only a handful representations of Yahweh. By the evidence the dominant cult of Judea was to Ashara.

As opposed to all of this, Walt Disney presents only religious traditions. He has no idea who invented them, when they were invented nor why they were invented. Nor does Walt Disney have any idea how many took them seriously when they were first invented.

All we know for a fact is they are all inventions that appear out of no where.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 07:11:27 AM by Iron Webmaster »
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline Sue

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« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2011, 08:50:03 AM »
Is Religion Man-Made?
By STANLEY FISH

Sure it is. Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens think that this fact about religion is enough to invalidate its claims.

“[R]eligion and the churches,” declares Hitchens “are manufactured, and this salient fact is too obvious to ignore.”

Religions are humanly constructed traditions and at their center are corrupted texts that were cobbled together by provincial, ignorant men who knew less about the world than any high-school teenager alive today. Sounds devastating, but when you get right down to it, all it amounts to is the assertion that God didn’t write the books or establish the terms of worship, men did, and that the results are (to put it charitably) less than perfect.

More here: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/06/24/is-religion-man-made/
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2011, 09:44:50 AM »
Yeah! Sad isn't it, most Christians even deny it, yet is as plain ase the nose on their faces.

It's also what has led us into these 'final wars' by taking away our 'soveriegnty'.

How can one doubt the concept that illiterate goatherds who blamed (attributed?) all natural phenomena to gods got it right?

Today god equals everything minus what is understood. In the sense of Godel this god can never go away but its provenance becomes vanishingly small and of nearly negligible importance.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2011, 01:18:38 PM »
We worship Christ. 
We dont worship Paul or Saul.

Many of the apostles were also Judeans, they are judged by their actions, not lineage.

Paul was the greatest missionary in Church history, and his work for the faith is unparalled.










"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2011, 01:28:37 PM »
Had nothing to do with good coming in 4s.

Even Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel gets it in one.

Quote
Of the many gospels written in antiquity, only four gospels came to be accepted as part of the New Testament, or canonical. An insistence upon there being a canon of four gospels, and no others, was a central theme of Irenaeus of Lyons, c. 185. In his central work, Adversus Haereses Irenaeus denounced various early Christian groups that used only one gospel, such as Marcionism which used only Marcion's version of Luke, or the Ebionites which seem to have used an Aramaic version of Matthew as well as groups that embraced the texts of newer revelations, such as the Valentinians (A.H. 1.11). Irenaeus declared that the four he espoused were the four "Pillars of the Church": "it is not possible that there can be either more or fewer than four" he stated, presenting as logic the analogy of the four corners of the earth and the four winds (3.11.8). His image, taken from Ezekiel 1, or Revelation 4:6-10, of God's throne borne by four creatures with four faces—"the four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and the four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle"—equivalent to the "four-formed" gospel, is the origin of the conventional symbols of the Evangelists: lion, bull, eagle, man. Irenaeus was ultimately successful in declaring that the four gospels collectively, and exclusively these four, contained the truth. By reading each gospel in light of the others, Irenaeus made of John a lens through which to read Matthew, Mark and Luke.

He also goes into four seasons, four winds and four directions in this "argument" from abysmal stupidity which was taken as authoritative for centuries and is still cited today by fools. Good things come in fours just like I said.

IF by some miracle you can find credible source material for these these four written by those who made the selection stating their reasons in rational terms you are of course encouraged to post the URLs. Please surprise me with something I do not know.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline EyeBelieve

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« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2011, 06:29:45 PM »
Oh, I thought you meant you finally finished reading the entire OT when I read the title of the thread.

Yes I thought the same.  Once as a kid I tried to read OT, it wasn't the length but I quickly lost interest amidst the "begats".  OTOH since OT is supposedly integral to Christianity it's odd that both Prot & Catholic teachers say don't bother reading OT start to finish.  5 pages/day & it doesn't take too long?  Or is there stuff in there that makes the whole deal look bad?

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2011, 08:14:01 PM »
We worship Christ. 
We dont worship Paul or Saul.

Please recite the red letter words of the gospels where J the C said he wanted to be worshipped. I will wait while you invent something. Bozo is patient.

Quote
Many of the apostles were also Judeans, they are judged by their actions, not lineage.

According to the gospels they were Galileans. According to Josephus the Galileans were forced to adopted the judean ritual/taboo "religion" by military conquest. They did not follow Judean customs by choice.

Quote
Paul was the greatest missionary in Church history, and his work for the faith is unparalled.

He was a Judean living in Antioch when his story opens in Acts. He was part of the attempt by the Jews to exterminate the Christians. (Don't start a fight you can't finish.)

Oddly the Paul of the Epistles does not appear to know much of the Paul of Acts but that is another subject for a later discussion. Paul also sold J the C on the basis of his imminent return making him a dupe or the greatest con artist in addition to the greatest missionary.

If he got it wrong then he was selling the wrong religion without knowing it.

The Paul of Acts says he stayed in Jerusalem long enough to learn all there was to learn. Therefore it is reasonable to assume he learned of J the C saying he would return within the lifetime of some he was talking to at the time.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline Jan Robertson

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« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2011, 10:50:21 PM »
We worship Christ. 
We dont worship Paul or Saul.

Many of the apostles were also Judeans, they are judged by their actions, not lineage.

Paul was the greatest missionary in Church history, and his work for the faith is unparalled.

You worship a false God and defend your beliefs with regurgitated Jewish Ideology.

Christ could not have been 'born' if it hadn't been for the TORAH, therefore Paul would not have become the "greatest missionary in church history" (false history I might add).

Read the history of ancient Israel and Judah according to the Jews themselves and see the blatant BS of  Judaism and therefore Christ inanity.

The true God of CREATION is a spiritual concept that can even be verified by science. The proof of this 'God' is in our BEING and our undeniable faith "in a creator" 

The God of man made religion is too full of imperfections, fantasy and mind control to be anything else but the figment of man's imagination and hallucinogenic entheogens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entheogen.



Judaism and Christianity

See also: Psychology of religion
According to The Living Torah, cannabis was an ingredient of holy anointing oil mentioned in various sacred Hebrew texts. The herb of interest is most commonly known as kaneh-bosm (Hebrew: קְנֵה-בֹשֶׂם). This is mentioned several times in the Old Testament as a bartering material, incense, and an ingredient in holy anointing oil used by the high priest of the temple. Although Chris Bennett's research in this area focuses on cannabis, he mentions evidence suggesting use of additional visionary plants such as henbane, as well.

The Septuagint translates kaneh-bosm as calamus, and this translation has been propagated unchanged to most later translations of the old testament. However, Polish anthropologist Sula Benet published etymological arguments that the Aramaic word for hemp can be read as kannabos and appears to be a cognate to the modern word 'cannabis', with the root kan meaning reed or hemp and bosm meaning fragrant. Both cannabis and calamus are fragrant, reedlike plants containing psychotropic compounds.

In his research, Professor Dan Merkur points to significant evidence of an awareness within the Jewish mystical tradition recognizing manna as an entheogen, thereby substantiating with rabbinic texts theories advanced by the superficial biblical interpretations of Terence McKenna, R. Gordon Wasson and other ethnomycologists.

"John Marco Allegro" has suggested that the self-revelation and healing abilities attributed to the figure of Jesus may have been associated with the effects of the plant medicines, this evidence is dependent on pre-Septuagint interpretation of Torah and Tenach. Allegro was the only non-Catholic appointed to the position of translating the Dead Sea scrolls. His extrapolations are often the object of scorn due to Allegro's non-mainstream theory of Jesus as a mythological personification of the essence of a "psychoactive sacrament".

*John M. Allegro wrote "The Sacred Mushroom and The Cross" after he interpretted his portion of the Dead Sea Scrolls and found many referrences for Jesus was an allegorical reference to Psilocybes

http://www.entheogens.com/godgene.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah



The Canaanite god Ba'al, 14th–12th century BC (Louvre museum, Paris)

 
Symbol of Ba'al found in Hazor, Israel
     

A Vatican 100 Lire gold coin. Note the symbol of Baal, found in Hazor, is behind the head of the figure supposed to be that of Christ.





Iron Age Yahwism
Current models among scholars see the emergence of Israelite monotheism as a gradual process which began with the normal beliefs and practices of the ancient world.

The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I was based on the cult of the ancestors and the worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers"). The major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god in the early period. By the early monarchy El and Yahweh had become identified and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult,[ although she continued to be popular at a community level until Persian times. Yahweh, later the national god of both Israel and Judah seems to have originated in Edom and Midian in southern Canaan, and may have been brought north to Israel by the Kenites and Midianites at an early stage. With the emergence of monarchy at the beginning of Iron Age II the king promoted his own family god, Yahweh, as the god of the kingdom, but beyond the royal court religion continued to be both polytheistic and family-centered, as it was also for other societies in the Ancient Near East.

There is a general consensus among scholars that the first formative event in the emergence of the distinctive religion described in the bible was triggered by the destruction of Israel by Assyria in c.722 BC. Refugees came south to Judah, bringing with them laws and a Prophetic tradition that Yahweh was the only god who should be served. These beliefs were adopted by the "people of the land", meaning the landed families who provided the administrative class of the kingdom, and in 640 BC these circles were decisive in placing on the throne the eight-year-old Josiah. Judah at this time was a vassal of Assyria, but Assyrian power collapsed in the 630s, and in around 622 Josiah and the Deuteronomists, as the circle around him are called by modern scholars, launched a bid for independence expressed as loyalty to "Yahweh alone" and the law-code in the book of Deuteronomy, written in the form of a treaty between Judah and Yahweh to replace the vassal-treaty with Assyria.

According to the theology of the Deuteronomists the terms of the treaty with Yahweh were that he would preserve both the city and the king in return for their worship and obedience to the law-code. The destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple, and the Davidic dynasty by Babylon in 587/586 BC was therefore a deeply traumatic event, and led to much theological reflection on the meaning of the national tragedy. The solution, set out in the series of history books from Joshua and Judges to Samuel and Kings, was to interpret the Babylonian destruction as divinely-ordained punishment for the failure of the kings to worship Yahweh alone.


Iron Age Judahite pillar-figurine of a popular fertility deity, possibly Asherah, consort of YHWH

http://www.orderwhitemoon.org/goddess/Asherah.html

In the middle ages in the Kabbalah where SHE is called the "Shekina".

Proof that Jews still worship her.
 
Shock and Awe

As we engaged Iraq in the first war of the new Millennium, the military spoke frequently and emphatically about the coming “Shock and Awe” phase of the military operation. Most everyone scratched their heads at this peculiar phrase.
In the Hebrew traditions, there is a word that is used to define the cloud of God's glory: It is roughly translated as “Shekinah” but the Hebrew mystics wrote it as “SHKNH”. Shock and awe.  It is highly probable that the strategists in the Psychological Warfare division of the army, who have a flair for the dramatic as well as the mystic and sometimes occultic, knew full well that the entire middle east would understand perfectly what “Shock and Awe” meant. When they added the new bomb, the “Mother of All Bombs” - “Moab” - I saw the picture. Moab was the sworn enemy of Israel, and was completely destroyed.

*Think about this "clever use of words"------ “shock and awe” does indeed describe the power of the biblical God.



Second Temple Judaism

The Second Temple period (520BC-70AD) differed in significant ways from what had gone before. Monotheism had emerged among the priests and the Temple establishment probably by the beginning of the Persian period, and beliefs regarding angels and demons were developing rapidly by its end.. It was at this time that the Torah was written, circumcision and Sabbath-observance became symbols of Jewish identity, and the institution of the synagogue became increasingly important. By the end of the Second Temple period the Jewish canon was becoming fixed, and, since there was still no monarchy and the reality of life did not match the expectations created by the religious traditions, messianic expectation began to surface.

Does your church worship Ba'al?

http://www.remnantofgod.org/steeple.htm
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Offline clefty

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« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2011, 06:58:25 PM »
You worship a false God and defend your beliefs with regurgitated Jewish Ideology.
ouch...christians have tried for centuries to distance themselves from joos...even change stuff around so it looks less jooish...and you can still see it? wow

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Christ could not have been 'born' if it hadn't been for the TORAH, therefore Paul would not have become the "greatest missionary in church history" (false history I might add).
"christ" used the OT to validate and vindicate His mission...IT was the reason He was here...

the whole of the christian construct remains "you are sinners must need saving"...how is that not jooish? ha ha ha

Paul just brought this spiritual trojan horse into rome and from there, all of europe "needed saving"...and out popped the joo...imagine that

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Read the history of ancient Israel and Judah according to the Jews themselves and see the blatant BS of  Judaism and therefore Christ inanity.
and joos laugh into their sleeves because joos are "chosen" christains believe anything...

except those clever traditional ones around here that maintain their christianity has nothing to do with joos... why jesus wasnt even joo but joodean...

besides, they maintain, the OT Laws no longer need to be kept nor apply to them...and yet still somehow they are the new Israel...and heirs of the promise to abraham...


 

Offline Rudi

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« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2011, 08:05:31 PM »
We worship Christ. 
We dont worship Paul or Saul.

Maybe you should worship God (and no, not Jehovah the volcano god of the Hebrews) instead of someone anointed with oil.

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Many of the apostles were also Judeans, they are judged by their actions, not lineage.

Were they Khazars?

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Paul was the greatest missionary in Church history, and his work for the faith is unparalled.

He was a murderer according to the NT. That work is ongoing.
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Offline Sue

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« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2011, 10:06:35 PM »

   
This video is an exerpt taken from the documentary “The Secret Family of Jesus” by Robert Beckford.

Paul’s Christianity is another matter altogether from the doctrine of Christ. He taught a different kind of theology than that shared by the original disciples, who were schooled under Jesus…. Moreover, James, Peter and the disciples were members of the Essaei community, which Paul most assuredly was not….

We see, then, that Paul was the father of Pagan Christianity [Roman Catholicism] a movement based on a concept completely foreign to Jesus, James, Peter and the Essaei community….
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline pope daniel

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« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2011, 12:28:31 AM »
<a href=\"http://www.onlinechurch.com.au/jesus-or-paul-true-christianity-vs-false-paulianity\" >Jesus Or Paul – TRUE Christianity vs FALSE Paulianity[/url]


<iframe width=\"420\" height=\"345\" src=\"http://www.youtube.com/embed/pRbuKDJhzU4\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen></iframe>

   
This video is an exerpt taken from the documentary “The Secret Family of Jesus” by Robert Beckford.

Paul’s Christianity is another matter altogether from the doctrine of Christ. He taught a different kind of theology than that shared by the original disciples, who were schooled under Jesus…. Moreover, James, Peter and the disciples were members of the Essaei community, which Paul most assuredly was not….

We see, then, that Paul was the father of Pagan Christianity [Roman Catholicism] a movement based on a concept completely foreign to Jesus, James, Peter and the Essaei community….

yes paul doesnt have valid apostolic succession blah blah blah they are all jews


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Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

Offline rodin

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« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2011, 11:56:47 AM »
Saul was a jew.

Number one consideration when weighing the evidence ^  :)

Not all the words attributed to Jesus in the NT are his. Use your discernment - what sounds like faked dialogue?
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Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2011, 12:28:07 PM »
Maybe you should worship God (and no, not Jehovah the volcano god of the Hebrews) instead of someone anointed with oil.
You mean like Muslims?
Jews and Muslims deny Christ as GOD, but HIS track record and teachings are pretty clear.
As is their contempt for HIM.




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Were they Khazars?
You know that answer, no,  Khazars were worshipping phallus's in Asia.
And Edomites..Lucifer



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He was a murderer according to the NT. That work is ongoing.
And some of his apostles were tax collectors, others in his circle were Prostitutes, sinners and publicans..

"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline Rudi

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« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2011, 05:35:57 PM »
Jews and Muslims deny Christ as GOD, but HIS track record and teachings are pretty clear.

Christ is a state of being, not a man. Muslims state that Jesus existed but he's not the 'physical' progeny of God, at least no more so than the rest of humanity.

In any case as far as I can see this conversation is pointless. I judge by works and thus far, on balance, Christians have done nothing for this world but hate, murder, kill and enslave. This seems to be a constant in ALL religions. So carry on worshiping myths and men. My faith is in God and the Golden Rule.
Suspend all belief. Get the facts ~ Rudi
No one rules if no one obeys ~ Lao Tzu