Author Topic: Narrating the Story of the Bible  (Read 3411 times)

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Offline FrankDialogue

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« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2011, 06:10:02 AM »
Frank, You are certainly correct to say there was no Judaism in OT times. But, I kind of disagree with these folks worshipping the Devil. Some did and the prophets and psalmists told us this. But, I view that old religion as pre-Christianity. Sacrifice of first fruits, animal and cereal were a precusor to the ultimate Sacrifice of the Son of God. It took thousands of years for the world to be ready for this Sacrifice at Calvary and the fullness of Truth. But even in the book of Exodus, we see priestly vestments and Altars of incense and of loaves and the Holy of Holies, which is now the Tabernacle sitting atop Catholic Altars. And look at Melchesidech in the book of Genesis, he offered bread and wine and blessed Abraham. Abrhaham who actually talked to God. That shows a power that seemed like nonsense until the only True priest, of the order of Melchesdech, Jesus Christ appeared. The psalms are all about Christ. And the prhophets are types of Christ. I'm sure you agree with much of what I say here, just adding my two cents.

I certainly agree, my friend.

Let me clarify my position.

I am what I would call a simple Christian, and what some Catholics would call a bad Catholic, because although I am a Catholic, I do not feel that keeping all the rituals of the faith a necessity. I agree with the catholic position on 'sola scriptura'...The catholic faith has produced some of the most brilliant scholars of the faith including Aquinas, even Augustine...These men are certainly had greater intellects than the one I possess...Reason goes hand in hand with faith, because reason is a gift of our Father, and we must use it: it is natural.

I, however, am not an 'apologist', because I do not have the time, and because Christ needs no apologies.

This website, while it has many extremely intelligent posters who bring many fascinating insights to the table, is basically anti-Christian...Perhaps yourself, me, Walt Disney, Irmatvep, roscoe and clefty are the Christians on board...Occasionally, if I have the energy, I will throw my two cents into debates on religion....Otherwise, my religion is based on faith and love of Jesus Christ, and I find more happiness in conversing with my brothers and sisters in faith than I do debating with sceptics, however intelligent the sceptics may be...This is because I have faith in a world after this one we struggle with, and I try to prepare myself to be ready to meet my Lord.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 06:30:12 AM by FrankDialogue »

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2011, 07:24:15 AM »
What is the NT?...It predates Islam by a few hundred years, correct?

Would you care to give the NT chapter and verse of a simple declarative sentence that there is only one god?

If there is such a thing why are you having such difficulty finding it?

Let me give you a head start.

It is written that Jesus the Galilean spoke of his unnamed father. Hercules is also recorded to have spoken of his named father, Zeus. So you get nothing from those gospel statements.

We know from Josephus that they Galileans only followed Judean customs because they were imposed by military conquest in the late 2nd c. BC so his observance of the custom of Passover in Jerusalem tells us nothing. The same for circumcision.

In fact his observance of the Passover ritual is portrayed as an opportunity teach something very anti-judean which could be construed as a Galilean tradition. We know the Judeans called the Christians Galileans. So what is attributed to Jesus can be construed not as original but traditional Galilean teachings.

Granted I have little basis for that last paragraph but it is far superior to an incarnation of the son of a god which is in the same category as the tales of Hercules and thus not worth serious consideration by rational people. However irrational people have to consider both incarnation stories as equal absent a basis for rejecting one and accepting the other. Personal preference is about the best the irrational can come up with.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
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Offline FrankDialogue

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« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2011, 09:58:58 AM »
One God?...I'll give you two instances from the mouth of Jesus Christ:

When being questioned by the Pharisees about who He was, and in the midst of Pharisee rationalization of their supposed 'racial' pedigree as 'children of Abraham, Jesus said to them 'Before Abraham was, I AM'

When questioned by the kangaroo court Sanhedrin, when Christ was asked if He was the messiah, He simply said 'I AM'.

Anyone familiar with the language and text of the OT will understand that God never described Himself as 'Yahweh' but, when asked who He was, said 'I AM'.

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2011, 11:09:50 AM »
One God?...I'll give you two instances from the mouth of Jesus Christ:

When being questioned by the Pharisees about who He was, and in the midst of Pharisee rationalization of their supposed 'racial' pedigree as 'children of Abraham, Jesus said to them 'Before Abraham was, I AM'

Who else was am'ed before Abraham? I do not see an "only" in that. I am looking for a simple statement like, there is no god but god, as in the Koran.

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When questioned by the kangaroo court Sanhedrin, when Christ was asked if He was the messiah, He simply said 'I AM'.

Bar Kokbah said he was the messiah as did several others. As that makes them all gods you still do not have just one being declared.

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Anyone familiar with the language and text of the OT will understand that God never described Himself as 'Yahweh' but, when asked who He was, said 'I AM'.

And the Martian asked Alan Shepard, Are you the one who hit that golf ball? And he answered, I AM. Therefore there is only one human in all the universe. Note as "he" is prejudicially capitalized so also is Alan Shepard's name.

Do you have a clear, declarative sentence saying there is only one god such as is found in the Koran? If not why not simply say so. If there is an important teaching one would think it would be right up front.

You might also look at missed opportunities over the following centuries such as the creeds. In those the meaning of believe is in the sense of having faith in such as I believe in justice or the song line, I believe in you. But let us use the modern distortion that means acceptance of an explicit fact of reality.

Look at the missed opportunities to change "I believe in one god" to "I believe there is only one god."

Of course it is "I have faith in one god" and then goes one to describe which one with lines such as "creator of heaven and earth." It was Amun in the Egyptian pantheon who created heaven and earth and created the first people out of clay. That made him the first god and therefore people were admonished to not to say there were other gods before him in time, that is, older gods. He shows up in the later tradition as Amun-Ra.

BTW: The story of Job is between Amun and Ra. Ra the god who brings the sun into the sky, who carries it across the sky, the light-bearer.

In any event having one god who created everything is obviously no barrier to having dozens of other gods. And as to created, they uniformly separate the heavens from the earth, even when Amun is called Yahweh in the Septuagint.

Try thinking of Amun as Stan Lee and the other gods as his superheroes. In the Catholic pantheon they are the saints.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2011, 11:17:39 AM »
...
Anyone familiar with the language and text of the OT will understand that God never described Himself as 'Yahweh' but, when asked who He was, said 'I AM'.

BTW: Note my avatar. "I am who am" works better in Ebonics.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline pope daniel

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« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2011, 03:25:56 PM »

If you know of a christian source for a simple, declarative sentence that there is only one god prior to Islam please tell me about it.


First Council of Nicea (325)

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

Offline pope daniel

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« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2011, 03:31:16 PM »
and I try to prepare myself to be ready to meet my Lord.

franks LORD:








Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

Offline pope daniel

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« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2011, 03:43:30 PM »
Our Lord:





and of course, the most holy pope daniel; whom smokes franks LORD:



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Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2011, 03:58:59 PM »
I certainly agree, my friend.

Let me clarify my position.

I am what I would call a simple Christian, and what some Catholics would call a bad Catholic, because although I am a Catholic, I do not feel that keeping all the rituals of the faith a necessity. I agree with the catholic position on 'sola scriptura'...The catholic faith has produced some of the most brilliant scholars of the faith including Aquinas, even Augustine...These men are certainly had greater intellects than the one I possess...Reason goes hand in hand with faith, because reason is a gift of our Father, and we must use it: it is natural.

I, however, am not an 'apologist', because I do not have the time, and because Christ needs no apologies.

This website, while it has many extremely intelligent posters who bring many fascinating insights to the table, is basically anti-Christian...Perhaps yourself, me, Walt Disney, Irmatvep, roscoe and clefty are the Christians on board...Occasionally, if I have the energy, I will throw my two cents into debates on religion....Otherwise, my religion is based on faith and love of Jesus Christ, and I find more happiness in conversing with my brothers and sisters in faith than I do debating with sceptics, however intelligent the sceptics may be...This is because I have faith in a world after this one we struggle with, and I try to prepare myself to be ready to meet my Lord.

Frank,

I had an interesting conversation with a very good friend on mine over coffee on this very issue.

He does not 'like' Catholic itual.
I asked him what the alternative TO ritual is...
He was stumped and I answered for him. It is Chaos. Free for all.

Do not fear ritual.
What was the last supper, if not ritualistic?
"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2011, 04:47:41 PM »
First Council of Nicea (325)

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.

Already addressed and it clearly does not say, we believe there is only one god. Clearly it is intended as an expression of trust in one god instead of many gods.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2011, 04:54:59 PM »
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2011, 05:11:13 PM »
Frank,

I had an interesting conversation with a very good friend on mine over coffee on this very issue.

He does not 'like' Catholic itual.
I asked him what the alternative TO ritual is...
He was stumped and I answered for him. It is Chaos. Free for all.

Do not fear ritual.
What was the last supper, if not ritualistic?

From where comes this faith in ritual magic?

If you say it is not faith then what physical evidence do you have that this is the alternative? Please be specific in your response.

If you say it is not magic upon what basis and by who were these rituals invented to demonstrate they are actual physical laws rather than magic?

Why are these rituals direct copies of the rituals for the Greek, Roman and Egyptians gods? For example carrying the "body" of the dead Adonis through the streets of Rome and mourning prior to the vernal equinox upon which he would return to the world of the living after spending two days in the underworld, aka descending into hell. Yes, two days instead of three, huge difference.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline FrankDialogue

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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2011, 07:54:19 AM »
Frank,

I had an interesting conversation with a very good friend on mine over coffee on this very issue.

He does not 'like' Catholic itual.
I asked him what the alternative TO ritual is...
He was stumped and I answered for him. It is Chaos. Free for all.

Do not fear ritual.
What was the last supper, if not ritualistic?

Walt:

I am not disparaging Catholic ritual, as much of it is beautiful, and helps illustrate the scripture, if you will.

I just have a hard time keeping all the observances, and don't feel that Christ condemns me because sometimes I have difficulty...Remember what Christ said about 'cleaning the outside of the plate and the cup'...I meant no criticism of the Church, and in fact, you will find no disparaging words from me about Catholic rituals and observances, especially in the midst of all the 'infidels' we have on the forum here.

I just admit to my shortcomings.

Mu only criticism of the Church comes when it involves itself with certain questionable politics, or I feel that it doesn't do enough to preserve the faith.

I have talked to priests in confession about this, and they have advised me not to get hung up too much over my shortcomings, as this is a tool the devil can use to seperate one from God.

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2011, 08:45:11 AM »
Walt:

I am not disparaging Catholic ritual, as much of it is beautiful, and helps illustrate the scripture, if you will.

Do the magic rituals of other religions not do the same thing? What are the intrinsic differences between the magic rituals?

It is commonly accepted (meaning there is no evidence whatsoever) that the only Christian ritual in the beginning was bread and wine at Passover. (The epistles make no mention of baptism that I recall.) Why was that not good enough? What motivated the myriad of "improvements" upon what was ordained by the founder himself?

Why didn't the founder get it right in the first place?
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2011, 08:53:22 AM »
Speaking of magic

Christians believe magic is real. They prohibit the practice of magic. If they did not believe in magic the only comment to practitioners would be "knock yourself out."

It is the same with worshipping other gods. If Christians did not believe there were other gods the same "knock yourself out" comment would apply.

In the latter the official BS line is the devil masquerades as other gods. That invention is not clearly datable. The problem is all, repeat all, the evidence in support of that disappeared with all the evidence of witchcraft as it was the same evidence.
1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!

Offline FrankDialogue

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« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2011, 09:29:12 AM »
Let me clarify my Christian understanding of the 'other gods' issue...Christians believe in spirits and spiritual forces, some of which can do good i.e. serving the purpose and creativity of God, or evil i.e. opposing the creativity and purpose of God...There is only one God, which we call our Father in heaven...The NT also speaks of the Son and the Holy Spirit: indeed so did Jesus Christ...The catholic interpretation of this is the Trinity, or 'three persons in one God'...This in no way contradicts a belief in one God, as any religion, if it is honest, will admit that God, or our Father, has many, if not infinite dimensions...Christ put things in a simple form, just as He used parables/metaphor, to bring things relating to the nature of God closer to a human perspective.

On the 'other gods', an accepted and generally agreed on interpretation of the term 'gods' would simply be spirits, who exist in a different dimension, not generally visible to us with our eyes...Sometimes the word 'gods' is also applied in other ways, sometimes sarcastically, but it usually implies an entity/entities from the spiritual realm...Some Christians, yea, even the Bible refers to Satan as a 'prince of this earth', and, extrapolating, as a kind of 'god'...This should never be confused with God, our Father, the Creator.

Offline Iron Webmaster

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« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2011, 10:44:00 AM »
Let me clarify my Christian understanding of the 'other gods' issue...Christians believe in spirits and spiritual forces,

I agree they are irrational people. I so stipulate that for all future discussions. Anyone claiming these "spirits and spiritual forces" are real need only present physical evidence before making any further statement on the subject.

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some of which can do good i.e. serving the purpose and creativity of God, or evil i.e. opposing the creativity and purpose of God...There is only one God, which we call our Father in heaven...

This description of spirits makes them indistinguishable from gods. They interfere in the world of their own volition. They are self-aware and have their own motivations. What more do you want of a god? Care to try again?

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The NT also speaks of the Son and the Holy Spirit: indeed so did Jesus Christ...

Sons of gods were around millennia before the Christians elevated their Jesus magician to that status. It is hardly an original idea. The spirit thing appears to be derived from the Egyptian goddess Isis. Nothing new here.

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The catholic interpretation of this is the Trinity, or 'three persons in one God'...This in no way contradicts a belief in one God, as any religion, if it is honest, will admit that God, or our Father, has many, if not infinite dimensions...

Obviously it is a mystical invention. Had it not been invented it would need no explanation. But the explanation is much more prosaic. The Greek defined a person as having four attributes, body, mind, soul and spirit. Make your god incorporeal and you are left with a trinity, mind, soul and (holy) spirit. The details of the evolution of this mind fuck is not clear however it is obviously derived from the Greek.

Considering Christianity something unique rather than a variation upon the religions of the time leads to all kinds of intellectual nonsense, mental masturbation in the vernacular.

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Christ put things in a simple form, just as He used parables/metaphor, to bring things relating to the nature of God closer to a human perspective.

Actually he recited gibberish with secret meanings which were, as per Acts of the Apostles, only revealed after his return to life after spending time in the underworld like Adonis or Osiris. Obviously any meaning which they appear to have cannot be correct else their meanings would not have been secret in need of revelation. Read your own literature.

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On the 'other gods', an accepted and generally agreed on interpretation of the term 'gods' would simply be spirits,

What people rationalize today to claim monotheism existed at a time when it clearly did not is not of interest. If in fact they really did believe there were no other gods then the only rational response would have been, knock yourself out, to those who wanted to worship them. You cannot condemn worship and claim they do not exist at the same time. And if spirits can respond to worship then they are indistinguishable from gods so you have changed nothing by calling them spirits.

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who exist in a different dimension,

Just because Hollywood jammers about different dimensions does not mean it is a rational concept. Please explain just which dimension and based upon what evidence that idiotic belief is based.

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not generally visible to us with our eyes...

Again, the physical evidence else you are posting like a lunatic believer.

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Sometimes the word 'gods' is also applied in other ways, sometimes sarcastically, but it usually implies an entity/entities from the spiritual realm...

Physical evidence please else no more lunatic recitations.

Quote
Some Christians, yea, even the Bible refers to Satan as a 'prince of this earth',

Are you really reciting unwashed, uneducated goatherds as authorities? Please try to keep your posts rational.

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and, extrapolating, as a kind of 'god'...This should never be confused with God, our Father, the Creator.

There are plenty of creator gods. Christians are no different from those who had different creator gods. It is sort of a waste of bandwidth trying to make Christians look different when they are no different from followers of other religions. They practice ritual magic, word magic, the water into wine sects practice blood magic. There is even an entire thread of living water magic in baptism.

You all believe in an entire spirit world that was invented back when gods were behind everything as in pre-scientific nonsense beliefs. The gods have vanished along with the magic to control and propitiate them.

Why do you stick with this primitive nonsense?

1.9 GB of pure vanity

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all you need to know about the conflict. All the rest is distraction.
See the new biopic, Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory!