Author Topic: Christianity and Catholicism Marked for Subversion & Infiltration  (Read 856 times)

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Offline WaltDisney

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From The Protocols of The Elders of Zion

In 1492, Chemor, Chief Rabbi of Spain received the following reply from the Grand Sanhedrin (Elders of Zion) to his plea for advice on how to deal with their threatened expulsion under Spanish Law; it illustrates well how the same ancient agenda was still being adhered to by the elect at this time:

'Beloved brethren in Moses (another lie), we have received your letter in which you tell us of the anxieties and misfortunes which you are enduring. We are pierced by as great a pain to hear it as yourselves.

The advice of the Grand Satraps and the Rabbis is the following:

1. As for what you say that the king of Spain obliges you to become Christians: do it, since you cannot do otherwise.

2. As for what you say about the command to despoil you of your property: make your sons merchants that they may despoil, little by little, the Christians of theirs.

3. As for what you say about making attempts on your lives: make your sons doctors and apothecaries (pharmacists/chemists), that they may take away Christian's lives.

4. As for what you say of their destroying your synagogues: make your sons canons and clerics in order that they may destroy their churches.

5. As for the other vexations you complain of: arrange that your sons become advocates and lawyers, and see that they always mix in affairs of State, that by putting Christians under your yoke you may dominate the world and be avenged on them.

6. Do not swerve from this order that we give you, because you will find by experience that, humiliated as you are, you will reach the actuality of power.'

(Signed) Prince of the Jews of Constantinople'
(Julio-Inigrez
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-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline curiousity

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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2011, 02:55:17 AM »
Walt,
What does the Knights Templar Cross mean in cathalocism?

http://www.ewtn.com/newMediaPlayer/mediaplayer300.htm


I'm seeing alot of interviews with local lodges in irondale,
and gold pyramids all over the front altar during live stream prayers.


Offline irmatvep

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« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 07:10:52 AM »
The image of the all seeing eye surrounded by a triangle was originally (apparently stilll is within Catholicism) a Christian symbol.  The eye represents the all knowing God who sees all things.  The triangle represents the trinity. 

Offline Sue

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« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2011, 09:33:51 AM »
The image of the all seeing eye surrounded by a triangle was originally (apparently stilll is within Catholicism) a Christian symbol.  The eye represents the all knowing God who sees all things.  The triangle represents the trinity.

The Eye of Providence (or the all-seeing eye of God) is a symbol showing an eye often surrounded by rays of light or a glory and usually enclosed by a triangle. It is sometimes interpreted as representing the eye of God watching over humankind (or divine providence).[1][2][3]

In the modern era, the most notable depiction of the eye is the reverse of the Great Seal of the United States, which appears on the United States one-dollar bill.

Religious use of the Eye

Imagery of an all-seeing eye can be traced back to Egyptian mythology and the Eye of Horus. It also appears in Buddhism, where Buddha is also regularly referred to as the "Eye of the World" throughout Buddhist scriptures (e.g. Mahaparinibbana Sutta) and is represented as a trinity in the shape of a triangle known as the Tiratna, or Triple Gem.

In Medieval and Renaissance European iconography, the Eye (often with the addition of an enclosing triangle) was an explicit image of the Christian Trinity. Seventeenth-century depictions of the Eye of Providence sometimes show it surrounded by clouds or sun bursts.
[edit] United States

In 1782, the Eye of Providence was adopted as part of the symbolism on the reverse side of the Great Seal of the United States. It was first suggested as an element of the Great Seal by the first of three design committees in 1776 and is thought to be the suggestion of the artistic consultant, Pierre Eugene du Simitiere.[4]
Original design for the Great Seal by Simitiere

Freemasonry
An early Masonic version of the Eye of Providence with clouds and a semi-circular glory

Today, the Eye of Providence is usually associated with Freemasonry. The Eye first appeared as part of the standard iconography of the Freemasons in 1797, with the publication of Thomas Smith Webb's Freemasons Monitor.[5] Here, it represents the all-seeing eye of God and is a reminder that a Mason's thoughts and deeds are always observed by God (who is referred to in Masonry as the Great Architect of the Universe). Typically, the Masonic Eye of Providence has a semi-circular glory below the eye. Sometimes the Eye is enclosed by a triangle.

Popular among conspiracy theorists is the claim that the Eye of Providence shown atop an unfinished pyramid on the Great Seal of the United States indicates the influence of Freemasonry in the founding of the United States. This was dramatized in the 2004 Disney film National Treasure. However, common Masonic use of the Eye dates to 14 years after the creation of the Great Seal. Furthermore, among the members of the various design committees for the Great Seal, only Benjamin Franklin was a Mason (and his ideas for the seal were not adopted). Indeed, many Masonic organizations have explicitly denied any connection to the creation of the Seal.[6][7]

Pictures: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Providence
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline Sue

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« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2011, 10:14:18 AM »
Catholicism vs. Freemasonry

Irreconcilable

Forever

Rev. Robert I. Bradley, S.J.

What is the truth regarding the present official attitude of the Catholic Church toward Freemasonry? To begin this inquiry into that which is now in effect, we should go back to what was stated in the Church's canon law before there was any doubt about where the church stood on Masonry. The former code (which, incidentally, was promulgated on Pentecost, May 27, 1917, just two weeks after Our Lady's first apparition at Fatima) contained a canon which definitely capped all the previous papal condemnations of it. Canon 2335 reads as follows:

    Persons joining associations of the Masonic sect or any others of the same kind which plot against the Church and legitimate civil authorities contract ipso facto excommunication simply reserved to the Apostolic See.

In the wake of the Second Vatican Council, however, when the revision of the Code of Canon Law was underway, the prevailing spirit of "ecumenical dialogue" prompted questions among various bishops as to whether or not Canon 2335 was still in force. Responding to these questions, a letter from Cardinal Francis Seper, Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, to the presidents of all the episcopal conferences, dated July 18, 1974, stated that: (1) the Holy See has repeatedly sought information from the bishops about contemporary Masonic activities directed against the Church; (2) there will be no new law on this matter, pending the revision of the Code now underway; (3) all penal canons must be interpreted strictly and (4) the express prohibition against Masonic membership by clerics, religious, and members of secular institutes is hereby reiterated.1

This rather awkwardly structured letter (which, for whatever reason, was not published in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, the official journal of record for the Holy See) came to be interpreted in many quarters as allowing membership by laymen in any particular Masonic (or similar) lodge which, in the judgment of the local bishop, was not actively plotting against the Church or legitimate civil authorities.

This state of affairs, in which undoubtedly a fair number of Catholics in good faith became Masons, lasted for some years. Then, on February 17, 1981, Cardinal Seper issued a formal declaration: (1) his original letter did not in any way change the force of the existing Canon 2335; (2) the stated canonical penalties are in no way abrogated and (3) he was but recalling the general principles of interpretation to be applied by the local bishop for resolving cases of individual persons, which is not to say that any episcopal conference now has the competence to publicly pass judgment of a general character on the nature of Masonic associations, in such a way as to derogate from the previously stated norms.2

Because this second statement seemed to be as awkwardly put together as the first, the confusion persisted. Finally, in 1983 came the new Code with its Canon 1374:

    A person who joins an association which plots against the Church is to be punished with a just penalty; one who promotes or takes office in such an association is to be punished with an interdict.

Cardinal Ratzinger's Declaration

Following the promulgation of the new Code, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the new Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, issued a new declaration: (1) the new Canon 1347 has the same essential import as the old Canon 2335, and the fact that the "Masonic sect" is no longer explicitly named is irrelevant. (2) the Church's negative judgment on Masonry remains unchanged, because the Masonic principles are irreconcilable with the Church's teaching ("earum principia semper iconcilabilia habita sunt cum Ecclesiae doctrina") (3) Catholics who join the Masons are in the state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion. (4) no local ecclesiastical authority has competence to derogate from these judgments of the Sacred Congregation. 3

With these official statements of the Universal Church now on record 4 , it should be clear that the lamentable confusion of so many Catholics regarding Freemasonry must be seen as only a temporary aberration –  to be written off as one most costly consequence of a mindless "spirit of Vatican II." But we may hope that, as in other issues that have plagued the Church in the last score of years, there is a providence in this, a veritable blessing in disguise. For now, more clearly than ever before, we should see just why the Catholic Church has been –  and will always be –  so opposed to Masonry.

It may at first seem plausible that the main (if not only) reason for its being condemned by the Catholic Church is that Masonry is conspiratorial. Its plotting against the Church (and, in the old Code, its also plotting against the State) is the one descriptive statement mentioned in both versions of the Code of Canon Law. Moreover, as the first curial document we cited (that of 1974) seems clearly to imply, the one requisite condition for permitting Catholics to join a Masonic lodge is that the lodge in question was not actively plotting against the Church and the State. Yet, for all its initial plausibility, this opinion seems to be inadequate. The proof of this is evident not only from the two subsequent curial documents (of 1981 and 1983), but more decisively still from the entire previous history of Roman documents, both curial and papal, treating of Masonry.

Beginning in 1738 with Clement XII's encyclical In Eminenti (just twenty-one years after the establishment of the Grand Lodge of England, the event usually recognized as the commencement of the modern Masonic movement) and running through ten successive pontificates, the Church's case against Freemasonry finds its culminating statement in 1884 in Leo XIII's encyclical Humanum Genus. Masonic deceitfulness regarding its real objectives in society –  and its consequent policy of secrecy regarding the authorities of Church and State, and including even the rank-and-file of its own membership –  has always been noted by the popes, and most tellingly by Leo XIII. 5 And in the century since then and in our own country this conspiratorial policy has been amply documented.6

However useful this knowledge of Masonic strategy is for our understanding of the authentic nature of the movement, it is quite secondary. It is wholly subordinate to that which defines the movement itself: the content in function of which conspiracy is but "method," the end determining and justifying the means. That content –  that end –  is what we must now examine, if we are to find the fundamental and explicit reason for the Church's condemnation of Freemasonry.

This fundamental reason can be briefly stated. The following summary passage from Leo XIII's Humanum Genus suffices.

    . . .that which is their ultimate purpose forces itself into view –  namely, the utter overthrow of that whole religious and political order of the world which the Christian teaching has produced, and the substitution of a new state of things in accordance with their ideas, of which foundations and laws shall be drawn from mere "Naturalism." . . .

Now, the fundamental doctrine of the Naturalists, which they sufficiently make known by their very name, is that human nature and human reason ought in all things to be mistress and guide. Laying this down, they care little for duties to God, or pervert them by erroneous and vague opinions. For they deny that anything has been taught by God; they allow no dogma of religion or truth which cannot be understood by the human intelligence, nor any teacher who ought to be believed by reason of his authority. And since it is the special and exclusive duty of the Catholic Church fully to set forth in words truths divinely received, to teach, besides other divine helps to salvation, the authority of its office, and to defend the same with perfect purity, it is against the Church that the rage and attack of the enemies are principally directed.7

Catholicism and Freemasonry are therefore essentially opposed. If either were to terminate its opposition to the other, it would by that very fact become something essentially different from what it previously was; it would in effect cease to exist as itself. For Catholicism is essentially a revealed religion; it is essentially supernatural, both in its destiny and in its resources. Beyond all natural fulfillment, it tends toward an eternity of ineffable union with God in Himself; and beyond all natural resources, it begins that union here and now in the sacramental life of the Church.

Masonry, on the other hand, is essentially a religion of "reason." With an insistence and a consistency matching Catholicism's self-definition, Masonry promises perfection in the natural order as its only destiny –  as indeed the highest destiny there is. And it provides for this perfectibility with its resources: the accumulated sum of purely human values, subsumed under the logo of "reason."

Literally a logo, the Masonic compass and square are the symbol of a Rationalism that claims to be identified with all that is "natural." The consequent syncretism, blending all the strands of human experience –  from the cabalistic mysteries of an immemorial Orient to the technological manipulations of a post-modern West –  is the basis for Masonry's claim to be not just a religion but the religion: the "natural" Religion of Man. That is why its claim to date from the beginning of history –  its calendar numbers the "Years of Light" (from the first day of Creation) or the "Years of the World" –  is no mere jest on its part. And that is why its opposition to the Catholic Church antedates the Catholic Church's opposition to it. For it cannot abide the Church's claim to be the One True Church, and the consequent refusal by the Church to be relegated to the status of a "sect" which Masonry would have it be.

Since the Church's claim to be the One True Church is ultimately founded and validated on the reality of the One True God, the opposing Masonic claim must ultimately derive from a perception of God that diametrically opposes the Church's faith. And so it does. Although Pope Leo does not explicitly speak of this essential opposition between Catholicism and masonry in terms of the First commandment of God –  "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have strange gods before me" –  surely the most radical and simplest way of situating this opposition is to say just this. The Masonic "God" is an idol. What the Masons really worship is Man –  or the Spirit who has deceived man from the beginning: the masked Spirit of Evil. This is the one primal reason why the Catholic Church has condemned, and will always condemn, Freemasonry. It is clearly sufficient to stand by itself as the only reason –  and in a most fundamental sense, as Leo XIII seems to imply, that is the only reason in fact.

Gravely Evil Misuse of Oaths

We can, however, give a second reason for the Church's opposition to Masonry. Not strictly independent of the first reason, based as that reason is on the First Commandment, we can yet distinguish a second reason –  based on the Second Commandment. Some ten years earlier than Humanum Genus, there appeared (even in English translation) a brief (barely more than pamphlet-sized) but penetrating work, A Study of Freemasonry, by the great bishop of Orleans, Felix Dupanloup.8 All the more impressive because of his "liberal" credentials, Dupanloup duly notes the facts, and the gravity, of the Masonic conspiracy. But what he stresses, besides the same primary point subsequently stressed by Leo XIII, viz., the Masonic violation of the First Commandment, is its violation of the Second Commandment by its gravely evil misuse of oaths. The famous (or, rather, infamous) oaths that run through the entire ritual of Masonic initiation are more than mere promises based on personal honor. They formally invoke the Deity, and have for their object a man's total commitment to a cause under the direst sanctions. The Catholic Church sees in such oaths an inescapable grave evil. Either the oaths mean what they say or they do not. If they mean what they say, then God is being called to invert by His witness loyalties (viz., to Church and to State) already sanctioned by Him. If the oaths are merely fictitious, then God is being called to witness to a joke.

It is not the secrecy of what goes on "behind the lodge door" that elicits and justifies the Church's condemnation of Masonry. It is rather the formal violation of the Second Commandment which these proceedings inescapably entail. The vaunted Masonic secrets, moreover, are scarcely that secret any longer. There is in fact a frequent Masonic plea to the effect that there are no secrets in Masonry –  that all is open to a truly open mind. On this point we may take the Mason at his word: he is speaking more truly than he knows!

The case for the Catholic Church's condemnation of Freemasonry is open and clear. By its very nature as formulated in its philosophical statements and as lived in its historical experience, Masonry violates the First and Second Commandments of God. It worships not the One True God of revelation –  Father, Son, and Holy Spirit –  but a false god, symbolically transcendent but really immanent: the "god" called "Reason." And it invokes without adequate cause the Name of the One True God. After such a case as this, to cite the secrecies of initiation and the further secrecies of machination called "conspiracy" is not only anti-climactic, it is beside the point.

To conclude: we Catholic should now see the Masons more clearly for what they essentially are. They are the heirs (unwitting or otherwise is irrelevant) of a religion which purports to be the one religion of the one "God" –  and therefore the enemy, intrinsically and implacably so, of Catholicism. Freemasonry in its modern mode is "modernity" in the deepest (i.e., the philosophical and religious) sense of that term. It is, in a word, "Counterfeit Catholicism." For its "God" is the "Counterfeit God": the one who would be as God, the one who is the prince of this world, the one who is the Father of Lies.

Notes: http://olrl.org/doctrine/vsmasons.shtml
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline rodin

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« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2011, 11:52:03 AM »
Tony Blair is a Freemason

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=5149682451814773800

who says he's a Catholic

Quote
Former Prime Minister Tony Blair has left the Anglican Church to become a Roman Catholic.
His wife and children are already Catholic and there had been speculation he would convert after leaving office.

Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, who led the service to welcome Mr Blair, said he was "very glad" to do so.

But ex-Tory minister Ann Widdecombe - herself a Catholic convert - said Mr Blair's voting record as an MP had often "gone against church teaching".

Last year, Mr Blair, who is now a Middle East peace envoy, said he had prayed to God when deciding whether or not to send UK troops into Iraq.

And one of Mr Blair's final official trips while prime minister was a visit to the Vatican in June where he met Pope Benedict XVI.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7157409.stm

Freemasonic handshake



His mother is from the Jewish Lipsett line on Donegal - his father LEONARD was the bastard child of two anonymous actors

The Origins of Freemasonry Thread @ DIF refers to 'Dissipation of the Darkness' etc.

http://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=88058
Belief is the Enemy of Truth

People will always be disappointed in me, for after they become convinced I am 'one of them' they will find out I am not.

Offline Father Brown

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« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 12:18:40 PM »
This theory kind of falls apart when one considers that none of the bishops listen to the pope anyway.

Unless of course you want to make the argument that this de-centralization is part of the plan. I suppose that is fair.

Offline curiousity

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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011, 01:37:35 PM »
The image of the all seeing eye surrounded by a triangle was originally (apparently stilll is within Catholicism) a Christian symbol.  The eye represents the all knowing God who sees all things.  The triangle represents the trinity.

Thats different from this-
http://freemasonrywatch.org/breaking_masonry_news.html

Offline Father Brown

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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2011, 03:07:55 PM »
Thats different from this-
http://freemasonrywatch.org/breaking_masonry_news.html

Dude, your avatar is so weird. Is that guy reciting the Talmud or the Koran?

Offline clefty

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« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2011, 06:10:01 PM »


Since the Church's claim to be the One True Church is ultimately founded and validated on the reality of the One True God, the opposing Masonic claim must ultimately derive from a perception of God that diametrically opposes the Church's faith. And so it does. Although Pope Leo does not explicitly speak of this essential opposition between Catholicism and masonry in terms of the First commandment of God –  "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have strange gods before me" –  surely the most radical and simplest way of situating this opposition is to say just this. The Masonic "God" is an idol.


oh boy...NOW they bring out the OT laws...the one's they claim are no longer binding...the old covenant laws are dead fulfilled ...we are no longer living under God's law...

but now to insist freemasonry and the occult have nothing to do with them...they cite God's law



Quote
We can, however, give a second reason for the Church's opposition to Masonry. Not strictly independent of the first reason, based as that reason is on the First Commandment, we can yet distinguish a second reason –  based on the Second Commandment. is its violation of the Second Commandment by its gravely evil misuse of oaths....If the oaths are merely fictitious, then God is being called to witness to a joke.

who's joking?...catholics are the jokers making changes to the law...and claim its no longer valid

Quote
Masonry violates the First and Second Commandments of God. It worships not the One True God of revelation –  Father, Son, and Holy Spirit –  but a false god, symbolically transcendent but really immanent: the "god" called "Reason."
why they so afraid of reason?

 
Quote
It is, in a word, "Counterfeit Catholicism." For its "God" is the "Counterfeit God": the one who would be as God, the one who is the prince of this world, the one who is the Father of Lies.

changes to the original do counterfeit is true...

freemasonry merely continues the true mission of the church...kingdom of god on earth with its new joorusalem

Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2011, 06:18:45 PM »

who's joking?...catholics are the jokers making changes to the law...and claim its no longer valid

Its Not.

It Died WITH Christ.



"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline clefty

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« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2011, 06:33:25 PM »
Its Not.

It Died WITH Christ.
well then the author of that bit had no basis to use God's law against the freemasons...

so what law are we judged by at the Lord's Day of judgement?




Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2011, 06:57:39 PM »
well then the author of that bit had no basis to use God's law against the freemasons...

so what law are we judged by at the Lord's Day of judgement?

One is either a Catholic Christian and accepts Christ, or an anti Christ Jew, and does not.


OLD
“The time is coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah…This is the covenant I will make with the house of
Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people” (Jer. 31:31, 33). By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. (Heb. 8:13) For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law (Heb. 7:12).


NEW
“Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come and has redeemed his people. He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David, as he said through his holy prophets of long ago, salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us — to show mercy to our fathers and to remember his holy covenant, the oath he swore to our father Abraham: to rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve him without fear in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.
And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High; for you will go on before our Lord to prepare the way for him, to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins, because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven to shine on those living in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the path of peace“. (Luke 1:68-79).



OLD is DEAD
“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law,”
 (Rom. 3:20).


“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law,”
(Rom. 3:28).
 “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
 (Rom. 5:1).


“But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God,”
(1 Tim. 1:8-11).
"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline clefty

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« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2011, 10:07:07 PM »
One is either a Catholic Christian and accepts Christ, or an anti Christ Jew, and does not.
accepting is obeying...following his example...not killing not lying not stealing etc because we wish to be like him and do as he did...he kept sabbath didnt say not to..or that its no longer binding...


Quote
OLD
“The time is coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah…This is the covenant I will make with the house of
Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people” (Jer. 31:31, 33). By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. (Heb. 8:13) For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law (Heb. 7:12).
again? covenant is new with the same unchanged law...

my people means my law is in their hearts...the old covenant is indeed obsolete but not its laws which indicate who god's people are...

change of priesthood went from malchezidek because he couldnt live forever which was the law...so the law changed...NOTHING TO DO WITH SABBATH...






Quote
OLD is DEAD
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law,”[/b]
 (Rom. 3:20).
the whole verse Wally...all of it...it ends "for by the law is the knowledge of sin"...without it we would not know sin...got it? stop corrupting...


Quote
“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law,”
(Rom. 3:28).
again Walt

read to the end of the chapter..."do we then make void the law through faith? CERTAINLY NOT! On the contrary we establish the law."...you pick and choose...and distort

Quote
“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
 (Rom. 5:1).
and desire to do as He wishes us to do...keep His will...obey Him...His Law


Quote
“But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God,”
(1 Tim. 1:8-11).
SEE? the LAW remains for any who sin...to point it out

and you think you are NOT contrary to sound teaching? ha ha ha

you think you are NOT SINFUL?

belief in Jesus doesnt keep you from sinning...it keeps you wanting to do His will and from dying forever when you fail to do so

the Law remains...even until judgement day...it reveals those who do and do not love Jesus


"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

your church is proud of her self proclaimed authority to change things...why you play protestant with using all this scripture?...

Her TRADITION changed it...its not in scripture Walt even she admits that...be proud of her... defend her...live outside God's Law but in church tradition


Offline WaltDisney

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« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2011, 05:18:48 PM »
accepting is obeying...following his example...not killing not lying not stealing etc because we wish to be like him and do as he did...he kept sabbath didnt say not to..or that its no longer binding...
If Gentile Christians were suppose to keep it,  & it was a sin if they didn’t, then there would be clear instructions to do so. It is NOWHERE in the Bible, nowhere.


One man KEEPS ONE DAY above all others. Another man KEEPS EVERY DAY ALIKE. The man that keeps a day, keeps it to the Lord (Sabbath Keepers & Sunday Keepers) Let each man decide for himself.

IT DON’T GET NO CLEARER THEN THAT!!!
 I choose to let Jesus be my Sabbath REST & no longer trust in my righteousness, but rather in His.   We have Colossians 2:16 & Romans 14 which clearly teach that it’s NOT required.
“Let no man judge you in meat, OR in drink, OR in respect of an holyday, OR of the new moon, OR of the Sabbath days:



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again? covenant is new with the same unchanged law...
Love One Another is not a new law?
OK




Quote
my people means my law is in their hearts...the old covenant is indeed obsolete but not its laws which indicate who god's people are...
So NOW you concede tha tthe Old Covenant IS Obsolete?
Progress, even for a Messianic Jew.



Quote

change of priesthood went from malchezidek because he couldnt live forever which was the law...so the law changed...NOTHING TO DO WITH SABBATH...

There is not ONE verse in the NT commanding Christians to observe or to continue to observe the Sabbath







the Law remains...even until judgement day...it reveals those who do and do not love Jesus
"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

your church is proud of her self proclaimed authority to change things...why you play protestant with using all this scripture?...

Her TRADITION changed it...its not in scripture Walt even she admits that...be proud of her... defend her...live outside God's Law but in church tradition
[/quote]
"I hardly exaggerate. Jewish life consists of two elements: Extracting money and protesting."
-Nahum Goldmann, Ex-President of the World Jewish Congress

Offline clefty

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« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2011, 07:36:23 PM »
If Gentile Christians were suppose to keep it, & it was a sin if they didn’t, then there would be clear instructions to do so. It is NOWHERE in the Bible, nowhere.
its the silence on the matter that screams NOTHING IS CHANGED...

it wasnt even debated like circumscision or diet laws which were not one of the 10

but sabbath was understood as to be remembered and kept holy because they are 1 of the 10 eternal laws...

no instructions to keep sunday is true..no instructions to stop keeping sabbath is also true...

why would any even consider to do so SABBATH IDENTIFIED THEM as keeper's of GOD's law

remember Walt other people have their own gods who made heaven and earth and did magic and demanded justice and no killing etc etc etc...only One gave REST...that was unique...

HELLO? is this thing on?

even in the OT there were provisions for " strangers within thine gates" to keep it...and through christ christians are no longer strangers but full israelites heirs to the promise of abraham...why? because they wish to  keep God's Law...

the God that made sabbath for all MANKIND not just JOO...

if you love me keep my commandments...how clear is that?

and by the way gentiles had NO PROBLEMS WITH KEEPING IT...they packed the synagogues on sabbath in Paul's day...and pissed the Joos off by coming sabbath after sabbath...

and to Jerusalem for Passover and Pentecost...yup lots of gentiles celebrated passover pentecost

and eating of the unleavened bread...just like you ha ha ha

gentiles were coming into the ekklessia...wishing to following the laws of its tradition and of its GOD you know the congregation of israel...to follow the resurrected one who changed nothing


Quote
One man KEEPS ONE DAY above all others. Another man KEEPS EVERY DAY ALIKE. The man that keeps a day, keeps it to the Lord (Sabbath Keepers & Sunday Keepers) Let each man decide for himself.

IT DON’T GET NO CLEARER THEN THAT!!!
I choose to let Jesus be my Sabbath REST & no longer trust in my righteousness, but rather in His. We have Colossians 2:16 & Romans 14 which clearly teach that it’s NOT required.
“Let no man judge you in meat, OR in drink, OR in respect of an holyday, OR of the new moon, OR of the Sabbath days:

paul in romans was speaking of the mosiac laws of FASTING they were specific too...but you miss that...he was not speaking of the CENTRAL LAW which bound Israel for "thousands of years" that of the sabbath

if the change was made the trumpets would blow and the declarations CLEAR...but instead the silence is deafing...

paul in colosians was supporting those dead in their trespasses and uncircumcised who were keeping the sabbath not to let the JOO judge them for Jesus had done made fools of them making a triumphant spectacle of them...

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Love One Another is not a new law?
OK
new? nope... its  in the OT...jesus included love your enemy...that is new...ya dig?

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So NOW you concede tha tthe Old Covenant IS Obsolete?
READ you blind dog...I have never said the covenant has not been re newed its the LAWS that are still the same and still binding to any who wish to hold onto the promises of abraham...

you think that because the covenant is re written the laws within it are changed...you are wrong

the contract has stipulations...and when this contract was renewed its stipulations remained

would it be fair to the OT believers to change the requirements? the very indicators as to which GOD is worshipped? the GOD that made heaven and earth

you scream bloody heresy when your mass is changed because that changes the faith...

but you insist God's eternal law is changed?


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There is not ONE verse in the NT commanding Christians to observe or to continue to observe the Sabbath
the first christians were JOOS...the gentiles wished to JOIN THEM...there was no need to command them...ha ha ha

the changes came after the NT

the temple was destroyed AFTER the last books of the NT were written and what did jesus say to do?

"Pray that your flight not be in winter or on the Sabbath" even here Jesus equates sabbath with a natural law of the seasons...can you change winter? you cant change sabbath either...it just is

so the  Sabbath should be kept...even after the destruction of the temple by ANY who professed belief and faith in Jesus resurrected...

oh and again..."if you love me keep my commandments..."

because "i have not come to destroy them"...duh

who do you love? the Lord? the Lord of the sabbath or?

sabbath was made for MAN...not just JOO...but for those that love Him
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 08:04:08 PM by clefty »