Author Topic: * Freeman claim won't get people far in court, judge says  (Read 2272 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sue

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 19731
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Thumbs Up
    • View Profile
* Freeman claim won't get people far in court, judge says
« on: June 16, 2011, 06:41:53 PM »


June 13, 2011

By ROBERT KOOPMANS
Daily News Staff Reporter ~ Source

Canada's so-called "freemen" are nothing more than "litigation terrorists" who clog up the system and steal precious resources, robbing people who need help from the courts, a judge said Monday.

Provincial court judge James Threlfall's strong words came as a Merritt man pleaded guilty to obstruction of justice. The man refused to give his name to police, sparking an incident that caused officers hours of work for what should have been no more than a speeding ticket.

Troy Polyak, 36, of Logan Lake, was stopped by the RCMP for speeding near Merritt almost two years ago. Polyak did not stop right away, however, and when he finally did, refused to provide his name or identification.

He was also rude, and responded in ways suggesting he subscribed to beliefs touted by the Freeman Association of Canada, a group that believes it is above the law.

Polyak was arrested and taken into custody. He was charged with obstructing justice and causing a police pursuit, and eventually released on bail.

Both the Crown and the defence proposed a fine of $1,000. Defence lawyer Jeremy Jensen told the court his client is no freeman, even though he may have espoused such philosophies the day of the incident.

"At the time, he had an anti-authoritarian attitude but he has moved past that," said Jensen. "He's paid for his mistake here already. He's been on bail since nearly the time of the offence."

Judge Threlfall said it's a good thing for Polyak, as he would not have gone along with a fine had the man maintained a claim to be above the law.

"If I thought for a moment he was part of the freeman movement, I would not deal with it in this fashion," said the judge.

"One of the problems we have is those who are taking an anti-authoritarian stance become litigation terrorists.

"They rob from people with legitimate problems, they take from the court's time. It impacts the entire system, and affects people who legitimate need decision-making from the courts."

Threlfall said freemen ideology also needlessly causes extra work for police officers, turning simple transactions into much lengthier more complex issues.

The judge concluded with a warning - proclaiming to be freemen will inevitably make matters worse for those who appear in court.

The Freemen Association of Canada says Canadians have been enslaved by government. They also purport to be governed by the "common law," not the Criminal Code or other Canadian legislation, which they describe as "admiralty law."

Freemen believe they do not have to pay taxes or engage in many other forms of government bureaucracy, including registering vehicles or obtaining driver licences.

Freemen often write their names using strange combinations of punctuation, something they believe differentiates their "natural, flesh-and-blood person" from the corporate shells or straw men created by the government.

Prosecutor Alex Janse said people must be made to understand they have an obligation to provide police with their name and identification if stopped pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Act.

Hey, can't say that the Kamloopsians are dozy:

"Litigation terrorists?"  Would that be like the "corporate terrorists" who use the courts and politicians to advance their killing of workers and the destroying the environment?  Of course the "corporate terrorists usually have more money, so have more power to influence the law.  These "Freemen" too have a point. Most Canadians did not vote for Harper's Police State, yet have to live in it. So where are the democratic ideals in that?
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Online Rudi Jan

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 14554
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • aka LoneWolf
    • View Profile
    • FauxWorld
- * Freeman claim won't get people far in court, judge says
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2011, 07:43:47 PM »
Canada's so-called "freemen" are nothing more than "litigation terrorists" who clog up the system and steal precious resources, robbing people who need help from the courts, a judge said Monday.

Much of the problem is that those who gain a little knowledge without digging deep, and I mean deep, into the history, the language and the meaning of law and statutes are not doing the movement much good. This business of declaring your sovereignty, writing ten page letters to bureaucrats rescinding all their presumptions, licenses and privileges, interacting with the police as if they give a hoot over the niceties of principals is generally ignored and rather counterproductive.

The better way is to do your homework and do it well. Once you grasp the fundamental principals and have a full understanding of what is lawful versus what is legal then clarity will guide you through enemy lines safely and move you to a position to counterattack from an unassailable position. I should add that one should never act belligerently, never offer a defense to the police, ask the right questions if appropriate and recognize that silence is your friend in such instances. Expect to be detained. You have the right to remain silent... a right, if exercised, that can stop them dead. They would sooner you go into defensive mode, rationalize, preach, rant and rave than remain silent. That unnerves them completely since then they can only guess at who you are and what you know.

If the ask for you name then give it, only answer in terms that precludes presumption, such as my given name is XXXXXX and my family name is XXXXXX. If they want to know where you live you answer "I am domiciled at such and such a place'. Telling them what you can and cannot do within the law just gets their backs up and they go into 'we'll show you' mode. You don't need to be friendly nor servile but minimally, being neutral and unfazed is an imperative. To get you through always remember that your chance for remedy will follow.
Suspend all belief. Get the facts ~ Rudi
No one rules if no one obeys ~ Lao Tzu

Offline Sue

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 19731
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Thumbs Up
    • View Profile
- * Freeman claim won't get people far in court, judge says
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2011, 08:38:10 PM »
Good advice, LW! Study and know what you are talking about.
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline pope daniel

  • Group Major
  • *
  • Posts: 1466
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Order of Miseratio Solvo Templum
    • View Profile
- * Freeman claim won't get people far in court, judge says
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2011, 08:43:32 AM »

his client is no freeman,
.

nope, he sure aint
Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

Online Rudi Jan

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 14554
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • aka LoneWolf
    • View Profile
    • FauxWorld
- * Freeman claim won't get people far in court, judge says
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2011, 12:53:49 PM »
Quote
Freemen believe they do not have to pay taxes or engage in many other forms of government bureaucracy, including registering vehicles or obtaining driver licenses.

It's interesting to note the use of language in which the word 'believe' is used to imply that the whole issue is in a sense, 'religious'.

I could as easily say that 'citizens believe they have to pay taxes or engage in all forms of government bureaucracy, including registering vehicles or obtaining driver licenses'. Does their 'belief' then substantiate the lie, merely because the lie is now de facto?

Believe what you will, but if you tack toward truth then facts become the wind that fills your sails.
Suspend all belief. Get the facts ~ Rudi
No one rules if no one obeys ~ Lao Tzu

Offline Sue

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 19731
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Thumbs Up
    • View Profile
- * Freeman claim won't get people far in court, judge says
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2011, 06:43:54 PM »
It's interesting to note the use of language in which the word 'believe' is used to imply that the whole issue is in a sense, 'religious'.

I could as easily say that 'citizens believe they have to pay taxes or engage in all forms of government bureaucracy, including registering vehicles or obtaining driver licenses'. Does their 'belief' then substantiate the lie, merely because the lie is now de facto?

Believe what you will, but if you tack toward truth then facts become the wind that fills your sails.

I believe you; ''Facts trump Belief''.
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline EyeBelieve

  • General of the Army
  • *****
  • Posts: 8632
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
- * Freeman claim won't get people far in court, judge says
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2011, 10:48:11 PM »
Much of the problem is that those who gain a little knowledge without digging deep, and I mean deep, into the history, the language and the meaning of law and statutes are not doing the movement much good. This business of declaring your sovereignty, writing ten page letters to bureaucrats rescinding all their presumptions, licenses and privileges, interacting with the police as if they give a hoot over the niceties of principals is generally ignored and rather counterproductive.

The better way is to do your homework and do it well. Once you grasp the fundamental principals and have a full understanding of what is lawful versus what is legal then clarity will guide you through enemy lines safely and move you to a position to counterattack from an unassailable position.

OK but from listening to the Bill Thornton tapes I hear that even after doing much research & practice one will usually still get screwed by the system.  Why should Freemen have to cross all their T's & dot all their I's just to have a chance in "court"? 

Online Rudi Jan

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 14554
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • aka LoneWolf
    • View Profile
    • FauxWorld
- * Freeman claim won't get people far in court, judge says
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2011, 10:15:26 AM »
OK but from listening to the Bill Thornton tapes I hear that even after doing much research & practice one will usually still get screwed by the system.  Why should Freemen have to cross all their T's & dot all their I's just to have a chance in "court"?

Agreed. However I would think that it's imperative to do exactly that... cross one's Ts and dot the Is. I'm just pointing out that those who start seeing the light and go to all lengths to declare their sovereignty without a full understanding of the game aren't helping, as admirable as their stand may be. Since you brought up Bill Thornton I would comment that he handles things before ever getting to court and remains silent except to object when necessary for the record. It does no good to argue with the cops... they live off the system and get their backs up should you even suggest that they are dupes. It is my impression that cops think they are lawyers, lawyers think they are judges and judges think they are gods. Humility is absent in all three groups.
Suspend all belief. Get the facts ~ Rudi
No one rules if no one obeys ~ Lao Tzu

Offline FrankDialogue

  • Lieutenant General
  • ***
  • Posts: 5707
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
- * Freeman claim won't get people far in court, judge says
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2011, 11:56:28 AM »
The party in question should have said he was a Freemason, given the 'on the square' hand sign, and had the little masonic bumper pin on his car...Then, he wouldn't have gotten a ticket in the first place...No problem, see?


Online Rudi Jan

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 14554
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • aka LoneWolf
    • View Profile
    • FauxWorld
- * Freeman claim won't get people far in court, judge says
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2011, 12:29:29 PM »
The party in question should have said he was a Freemason, given the 'on the square' hand sign, and had the little masonic bumper pin on his car...Then, he wouldn't have gotten a ticket in the first place...No problem, see?
That may very well be the proper corrupt process. In any case, setting such corruption aside, the fellow said far too much as it was and damaged himself as is bound to happen when making the presumption that there is any honesty in our commercial judicial system.
Suspend all belief. Get the facts ~ Rudi
No one rules if no one obeys ~ Lao Tzu

Offline Sue

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 19731
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Thumbs Up
    • View Profile
- * Freeman claim won't get people far in court, judge says
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2011, 01:05:26 PM »
I don't want to join Kamloops News, but it is nice to see that there are the odd ones who have a clue:

1296672222
  harold1231 5 days ago in reply to CZ_858

Just today, in the House of Commons, it was revealed by the Minister of Indian Affairs, John Duncan, that CSIS and RCMP are engaged in covert operation on Canadian Indian reserves to undermine dissidents fighting for clean water and better schools.  One of the markings of Harpers police state.

Did I mention having the RCMP remove hecklers from Harper's election rallies?  Have you forgotten Sgt. Pepper, the G-20 in Quebec with agent provocateurs. The G-20 in Toronto? No signs of a police state here with the cops accepting orders from the politicians to suppress dissent.

source
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Online Rudi Jan

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 14554
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • aka LoneWolf
    • View Profile
    • FauxWorld
- * Freeman claim won't get people far in court, judge says
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2011, 08:31:26 PM »
I don't want to join Kamloops News, but it is nice to see that there are the odd ones who have a clue:

Seems all but one of the comments were from people who 'got it'. Very encouraging.  :)
Suspend all belief. Get the facts ~ Rudi
No one rules if no one obeys ~ Lao Tzu

Offline EyeBelieve

  • General of the Army
  • *****
  • Posts: 8632
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
- * Freeman claim won't get people far in court, judge says
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2011, 07:36:05 PM »
Agreed. However I would think that it's imperative to do exactly that... cross one's Ts and dot the Is. I'm just pointing out that those who start seeing the light and go to all lengths to declare their sovereignty without a full understanding of the game aren't helping, as admirable as their stand may be. Since you brought up Bill Thornton I would comment that he handles things before ever getting to court and remains silent except to object when necessary for the record. It does no good to argue with the cops... they live off the system and get their backs up should you even suggest that they are dupes. It is my impression that cops think they are lawyers, lawyers think they are judges and judges think they are gods. Humility is absent in all three groups.

re preparation I guess the Boy Scouts have that bit correct.  Polyak, anyway, crumbled by hiring a sellout hack attorney who refused to follow the "Freeman" deal.

re arguing w/cops I agree; whether it's proper to give name/address to them I'm not sure but yes refusal will anger them to no apparent benefit.  OTOH even if one gives name/addy politely they will usually ask pointed questions trying to get self-incrimination & get upset if one refuses to give further info/consent to search etc.

Online Rudi Jan

  • Administrator
  • Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 14554
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • aka LoneWolf
    • View Profile
    • FauxWorld
- * Freeman claim won't get people far in court, judge says
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2011, 07:53:12 PM »
re arguing w/cops I agree; whether it's proper to give name/address to them I'm not sure but yes refusal will anger them to no apparent benefit.

You can give your name but do so properly... my given name is and my family name is...

As to giving address, do the same... I am domiciled in the city/town of on such and such a street...

NEVER carry ID! That's an imperative. If asked to sign anything, just smile, take the pen, write 'under duress' or 'without prejudice' and sign over top of it.
Suspend all belief. Get the facts ~ Rudi
No one rules if no one obeys ~ Lao Tzu