Author Topic: * Five myths about Muslims in America  (Read 3608 times)

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Offline Sue

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« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2011, 03:03:26 PM »

Two quick questions, have you always lived where you are now? Have you ever been in a Muslim country? I have lived on three continents, I have visited one Muslim Country, twice, Turkey. Both visits were rather delightful. Here is the article that I was looking for.

Selective Memri

Monday 12 August 2002




Brian Whitaker investigates whether the 'independent' media institute
that translates the Arabic newspapers is quite what it seems...

For some time now, I have been receiving small gifts from a generous institute in the United States. The gifts are high-quality translations of articles from Arabic newspapers which the institute sends to me by email every few days, entirely free-of-charge.

The emails also go to politicians and academics, as well as to lots of other journalists. The stories they contain are usually interesting.

Whenever I get an email from the institute, several of my Guardian colleagues receive one too and regularly forward their copies to me - sometimes with a note suggesting that I might like to check out the story and write about it.

If the note happens to come from a more senior colleague, I'm left feeling that I really ought to write about it. One example last week was a couple of paragraphs translated by the institute, in which a former doctor in the Iraqi army claimed that Saddam Hussein had personally given orders to amputate the ears of military deserters.

The organisation that makes these translations and sends them out is the Middle East Media Research Institute (Memri), based in Washington but with recently-opened offices in London, Berlin and Jerusalem.

Its work is subsidised by US taxpayers because as an "independent, non-partisan, non-profit" organisation, it has tax-deductible status under American law.

Memri's purpose, according to its website, is to bridge the language gap between the west - where few speak Arabic - and the Middle East, by "providing timely translations of Arabic, Farsi, and Hebrew media".

Despite these high-minded statements, several things make me uneasy whenever I'm asked to look at a story circulated by Memri. First of all, it's a rather mysterious organisation. Its website does not give the names of any people to contact, not even an office address.

The reason for this secrecy, according to a former employee, is that "they don't want suicide bombers walking through the door on Monday morning" (Washington Times, June 20).

This strikes me as a somewhat over-the-top precaution for an institute that simply wants to break down east-west language barriers.

The second thing that makes me uneasy is that the stories selected by Memri for translation follow a familiar pattern: either they reflect badly on the character of Arabs or they in some way further the political agenda of Israel. I am not alone in this unease.

Ibrahim Hooper of the Council on American-Islamic Relations told the Washington Times: "Memri's intent is to find the worst possible quotes from the Muslim world and disseminate them as widely as possible."

Memri might, of course, argue that it is seeking to encourage moderation by highlighting the blatant examples of intolerance and extremism. But if so, one would expect it - for the sake of non-partisanship - t o publicise extremist articles in the Hebrew media too.

Although Memri claims that it does provide translations from Hebrew media, I can't recall receiving any.

Evidence from Memri's website also casts doubt on its non-partisan status. Besides supporting liberal democracy, civil society, and the free market, the institute also emphasises "the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel".

That is what its website used to say, but the words about Zionism have now been deleted. The original page, however, can still be found in internet archives.

The reason for Memri's air of secrecy becomes clearer when we look at the people behind it. The co-founder and president of Memri, and the registered owner of its website, is an Israeli called Yigal Carmon.

Mr - or rather, Colonel - Carmon spent 22 years in Israeli military intelligence and later served as counter-terrorism adviser to two Israeli prime ministers, Yitzhak Shamir and Yitzhak Rabin.

Retrieving another now-deleted page from the archives of Memri's website also throws up a list of its staff. Of the six people named, three - including Col Carmon - are described as having worked for Israeli intelligence.

Among the other three, one served in the Israeli army's Northern Command Ordnance Corps, one has an academic background, and the sixth is a former stand-up comedian.

Col Carmon's co-founder at Memri is Meyrav Wurmser, who is also director of the centre for Middle East policy at the Indianapolis-based Hudson Institute, which bills itself as "America's premier source of applied research on enduring policy challenges".

The ubiquitous Richard Perle, chairman of the Pentagon's defence policy board, recently joined Hudson's board of trustees.

Ms Wurmser is the author of an academic paper entitled Can Israel Survive Post-Zionism? in which she argues that leftwing Israeli intellectuals pose "more than a passing threat" to the state of Israel, undermining its soul and reducing its will for self-defence.

In addition, Ms Wurmser is a highly qualified, internationally recognised, inspiring and knowledgeable speaker on the Middle East whose presence would make any "event, radio or television show a unique one" - according to Benador Associates, a public relations company which touts her services.

Nobody, so far as I know, disputes the general accuracy of Memri's translations but there are other reasons to be concerned about its output.

The email it circulated last week about Saddam Hussein ordering people's ears to be cut off was an extract from a longer article in the pan-Arab newspaper, al-Hayat, by Adil Awadh who claimed to have first-hand knowledge of it.

It was the sort of tale about Iraqi brutality that newspapers would happily reprint without checking, especially in the current atmosphere of war fever. It may well be true, but it needs to be treated with a little circumspection.

Mr Awadh is not exactly an independent figure. He is, or at least was, a member of the Iraqi National Accord, an exiled Iraqi opposition group backed by the US - and neither al-Hayat nor Memri mentioned this.

Also, Mr Awadh's allegation first came to light some four years ago, when he had a strong personal reason for making it. According to a Washington Post report in 1998, the amputation claim formed part of his application for political asylum in the United States.

At the time, he was one of six Iraqis under arrest in the US as suspected terrorists or Iraqi intelligence agents, and he was trying to show that the Americans had made a mistake.

Earlier this year, Memri scored two significant propaganda successes against Saudi Arabia. The first was its translation of an article from al-Riyadh newspaper in which a columnist wrote that Jews use the blood of Christian or Muslim children in pastries for the Purim religious festival.

The writer, a university teacher, was apparently relying on an anti-semitic myth that dates back to the middle ages. What this demonstrated, more than anything, was the ignorance of many Arabs - even those highly educated - about Judaism and Israel, and their readiness to believe such ridiculous stories.

But Memri claimed al-Riyadh was a Saudi "government newspaper" - in fact it's privately owned - implying that the article had some form of official approval.

Al-Riyadh's editor said he had not seen the article before publication because he had been abroad. He apologised without hesitation and sacked his columnist, but by then the damage had been done.

Memri's next success came a month later when Saudi Arabia's ambassador to London wrote a poem entitled The Martyrs - about a young woman suicide bomber - which was published in al-Hayat newspaper.

Memri sent out translated extracts from the poem, which it described as "praising suicide bombers". Whether that was the poem's real message is a matter of interpretation. It could, perhaps more plausibly, be read as condemning the political ineffectiveness of Arab leaders, but Memri's interpretation was reported, almost without question, by the western media.

These incidents involving Saudi Arabia should not be viewed in isolation. They are part of building a case against the kingdom and persuading the United States to treat it as an enemy, rather than an ally.

It's a campaign that the Israeli government and American neo-conservatives have been pushing since early this year - one aspect of which was the bizarre anti-Saudi briefing at the Pentagon, hosted last month by Richard Perle.

To anyone who reads Arabic newspapers regularly, it should be obvious that the items highlighted by Memri are those that suit its agenda and are not representative of the newspapers' content as a whole.

The danger is that many of the senators, congressmen and "opinion formers" who don't read Arabic but receive Memri's emails may get the idea that these extreme examples are not only truly representative but also reflect the policies of Arab governments.

Memri's Col Carmon seems eager to encourage them in that belief. In Washington last April, in testimony to the House committee on international relations, he portrayed the Arab media as part of a wide-scale system of government-sponsored indoctrination.

"The controlled media of the Arab governments conveys hatred of the west, and in particular, of the United States," he said. "Prior to September 11, one could frequently find articles which openly supported, or even called for, terrorist attacks against the United States ...

"The United States is sometimes compared to Nazi Germany, President Bush to Hitler, Guantanamo to Auschwitz," he said.

In the case of the al-Jazeera satellite channel, he added, "the overwhelming majority of guests and callers are typically anti-American and anti-semitic".

Unfortunately, it is on the basis of such sweeping generalisations that much of American foreign policy is built these days.

As far as relations between the west and the Arab world are concerned, language is a barrier that perpetuates ignorance and can easily foster misunderstanding.

All it takes is a small but active group of Israelis to exploit that barrier for their own ends and start changing western perceptions of Arabs for the worse.

It is not difficult to see what Arabs might do to counter that. A group of Arab media companies could get together and publish translations of articles that more accurately reflect the content of their newspapers.

It would certainly not be beyond their means. But, as usual, they may prefer to sit back and grumble about the machinations of Israeli intelligence veterans.

The following correction was printed in the Guardian's Corrections and Clarifications column, Wednesday August 21 2002

In an article headed Atrocity stories regain currency, page 13, August 8, and in an article headed Selective Memri on the Guardian website, we referred to Dr Adil Awadh, an Iraqi doctor who alleged that Saddam Hussein had ordered doctors to amputate the ears of soldiers who deserted. Dr Awadh has asked us to make it clear that he has no connection with Memri (Middle East Media Research Institute), and that he did not authorise its translation of parts of an article by him. He is no longer a member of the Iraqi National Accord (INA). He is an independent member of the Iraqi National Congress (INC). His reference to orders by Saddam Hussein to cut off the ears of deserters has been supported by evidence from other sources.
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline Rudi

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« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2011, 03:23:58 PM »
'The reason for this secrecy, according to a former employee, is that "they don't want suicide bombers walking through the door on Monday morning" (Washington Times, June 20).'

But wait... they report for work there every morning.
Suspend all belief. Get the facts ~ Rudi
No one rules if no one obeys ~ Lao Tzu

Offline Sue

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« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2011, 04:12:47 PM »
But wait... they report for work there every morning.

He he...
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline Spahi

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« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2011, 04:42:50 PM »
Fair enough, as far as it goes, I suppose. He doesn't mention the Muslims from British India who fought in the Union Army, and also the Confederate States Army, though. However, he's a bit off when he says "Muslims fought to preserve American independence in the War of 1812". They may well have fought in the US Army and Navy, but the War of 1812 had nothing to do with American Independence. As David Orchard wrote in his book The Fight for Canada: Four centuries of resistance to American expansionism (Chapter 3 "To Rival the Exploits of Rome"):

Personally I'm a bit wary about this imam and the other that tried to build the big mosque in Tennessee. It seems they begin by causing controversy then mellow out a bit and talk about why we are justified in living in the US as if we have to give special reasons being here and others don't. He says good things here but I'm gonna keep watching.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 04:43:31 PM by Spahi »

Offline WindRiverShoshoni

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« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2011, 05:54:28 PM »
A group of Arab media companies could get together and publish translations of articles that more accurately reflect the content of their newspapers.

See Aramco World, published free by Saudi Arabia (Subscribe free here; and The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, published by former American diplomats and diplomatic personnel.

You won't find either in bookstores or newsstands, the publishing industry distributors refuse to distribute them.  That's a prerogative of a free press ...
It's too dark here.

Offline Spahi

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« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2011, 06:07:14 PM »
See Aramco World, published free by Saudi Arabia (Subscribe free here; and The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, published by former American diplomats and diplomatic personnel.

You won't find either in bookstores or newsstands, the publishing industry distributors refuse to distribute them.  That's a prerogative of a free press ...

Everyone should go on their walking tours.

Offline wag

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« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2011, 06:16:05 PM »
That's a prerogative of a free press ...

Free to control the "information".
Nobody gets paid to tell the truth.

Offline wag

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« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2011, 06:29:34 PM »
Everyone should go on their walking tours.

Walk through the villages.
Nobody gets paid to tell the truth.

Offline Sue

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« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2011, 06:31:03 PM »
See Aramco World, published free by Saudi Arabia (Subscribe free here; and The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, published by former American diplomats and diplomatic personnel.

You won't find either in bookstores or newsstands, the publishing industry distributors refuse to distribute them.  That's a prerogative of a free press ...

Thank you WRS, I will take a look. Nice pictures.



A 17th-century traveler estimated there were more than 3000 pigeon towers near Isfahan, and today some 250 to 300 survive in various states of decay. Though many look alike, no two are precisely the same.
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline Sue

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« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2011, 06:40:45 PM »
Walk through the villages.

I went on a walking tour in Anamur on a clear you can see Cyprus.

Take a look, it is beautiful. http://iguide.travel/Mersin
"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to state this or that or the other, but it is "not done".
...Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with.

Offline WindRiverShoshoni

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« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2011, 06:44:57 PM »
Personally I'm a bit wary about this imam and the other that tried to build the big mosque in Tennessee. It seems they begin by causing controversy then mellow out a bit and talk about why we are justified in living in the US as if we have to give special reasons being here and others don't. He says good things here but I'm gonna keep watching.

Another load of horse hockey.

'Abdur-Ra'uf caused no controversy whatsoever.  Well-known for decades to all the religious and community leaders in lower Manhattan, he has had their support of the Cordoba House community center since before it was even an idea.  One group opposed the plans after the necessary building permits and zoning changes were approved by the secular authorities, and as the election approached, a group of zionists funded the witch in New York in raising a national ruckus to demonize muslims and Islam as a campaign issue.  As soon as the elections were over, it all evaporated ~ the American people weren't buying it.  All this is well-documented and available for reading on the Web, for those who do their own research and don't just drink the Kool-Aid.

In Tennessee, the muslim community has been there for decades, and has long since outgrown its small mosque.  Years ago they bought the land, acquired the necessary building permits and zoning changes, and started construction on a new mosque complex to accommodate a muslim population twenty times as large as it used to be, including a hefty percentage of indigenous American muslims along with a comparable percentage of born-in-Tennessee descendants of immigrant grandparents and great grandparents.  There had never been any "controversy" regarding those muslims until some people with no connection to Tennessee started agitating against the building of the "super-mosque."  And all this is well-documented and available for reading on the Web, for those who do their own research and don't just swallow the media crapola without even thinking twice.

It's far beyond disgusting to see this kind of crap on this forum.  It's either flat-out ignorant mindless babble or it's deliberate falsification and demonization propaganda, and it has no place in a forum called "Freedom Portal."  This is not "Free Republic," which is openly run by zionists, and it is not "Liberty Forum," which was secretly run by zionist dupes.

Where's NOLAJBS?  I think he would have dumped these shills ~ or at least deleted their war propaganda ~ at first sight.  What's next ~ dispatches from the Marxist Mujahideen Khalq, who fled Iran when the Shah was dumped, to join the war party in Washington DC?  Or maybe some "eyewitness testimony" from Afghanistan's former opium barons and warlords, driven out by the Taliban, who are now America's "allies" in Kabul?  (Which is all the "allies" have ~ one city, under martial law ~ and a thoroughly corrupt and despised puppet government.)

How about an alarming article about how most of the armed conflicts in the world today involve muslims, without any mention of the facts that (1) they're all wars and occupations in muslim-majority countries invaded by American oil interests; and (2) they virtually all involve Jewish or Christian aggressors, and usually both in a "Let's you and him fight" scenario, who have agitated for "intervention" with similarly outrageous distortions of reality like Skeptic and Spahi have written in this Thread.

So is Freedom Portal going to become another vehicle for Israeli hasbara agitprop aimed at discouraging people from even thinking about reading the Qur'an and learning the pre- and post-Messianic Biblical history that's been suppressed from Western information media and public education?

Read The Controversy of Zion for the history of the Tel Aviv crowd after Jesus, until the middle of the Twentieth Century, and then read Skeptic's posts, in context.

There's nothing "new" or "liberty-oriented" about this crap being spammed onto this forum.

It's too dark here.

Offline Spahi

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« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2011, 07:02:21 PM »
Another load of horse hockey.

'Abdur-Ra'uf caused no controversy whatsoever.  Well-known for decades to all the religious and community leaders in lower Manhattan, he has had their support of the Cordoba House community center since before it was even an idea.  One group opposed the plans after the necessary building permits and zoning changes were approved by the secular authorities, and as the election approached, a group of zionists funded the witch in New York in raising a national ruckus to demonize muslims and Islam as a campaign issue.  As soon as the elections were over, it all evaporated ~ the American people weren't buying it.  All this is well-documented and available for reading on the Web, for those who do their own research and don't just drink the Kool-Aid.

In Tennessee, the muslim community has been there for decades, and has long since outgrown its small mosque.  Years ago they bought the land, acquired the necessary building permits and zoning changes, and started construction on a new mosque complex to accommodate a muslim population twenty times as large as it used to be, including a hefty percentage of indigenous American muslims along with a comparable percentage of born-in-Tennessee descendants of immigrant grandparents and great grandparents.  There had never been any "controversy" regarding those muslims until some people with no connection to Tennessee started agitating against the building of the "super-mosque."  And all this is well-documented and available for reading on the Web, for those who do their own research and don't just swallow the media crapola without even thinking twice.

It's far beyond disgusting to see this kind of crap on this forum.  It's either flat-out ignorant mindless babble or it's deliberate falsification and demonization propaganda, and it has no place in a forum called "Freedom Portal."  This is not "Free Republic," which is openly run by zionists, and it is not "Liberty Forum," which was secretly run by zionist dupes.

Where's NOLAJBS?  I think he would have dumped these shills ~ or at least deleted their war propaganda ~ at first sight.  What's next ~ dispatches from the Marxist Mujahideen Khalq, who fled Iran when the Shah was dumped, to join the war party in Washington DC?  Or maybe some "eyewitness testimony" from Afghanistan's former opium barons and warlords, driven out by the Taliban, who are now America's "allies" in Kabul?  (Which is all the "allies" have ~ one city, under martial law ~ and a thoroughly corrupt and despised puppet government.)

How about an alarming article about how most of the armed conflicts in the world today involve muslims, without any mention of the facts that (1) they're all wars and occupations in muslim-majority countries invaded by American oil interests; and (2) they virtually all involve Jewish or Christian aggressors, and usually both in a "Let's you and him fight" scenario, who have agitated for "intervention" with similarly outrageous distortions of reality like Skeptic and Spahi have written in this Thread.

So is Freedom Portal going to become another vehicle for Israeli hasbara agitprop aimed at discouraging people from even thinking about reading the Qur'an and learning the pre- and post-Messianic Biblical history that's been suppressed from Western information media and public education?

Read The Controversy of Zion for the history of the Tel Aviv crowd after Jesus, until the middle of the Twentieth Century, and then read Skeptic's posts, in context.

There's nothing "new" or "liberty-oriented" about this crap being spammed onto this forum.

I believe we have a misunderstanding.  I'm allowed to distrust any imam if I feel like it, but I'm not forcing anyone to accept the opinion. Have you looked at the Park 51 architecture? It looks totally warped, and not in a good way. But I assure you I am not shilling here. When I said controversy, I was referring to how the public viewed it, and yeah it's bullsh*t that it would cause such a fuss but it happened anyway. Sceptic raging about stoning being a part of Islam is a lie, yes, which I don't understand why she would think such when she has a site discrediting the hadith that proscribed it in her signature. In the Quran everyone that threatens stoning happen to be rejectors of the message, and it remains a barbaric practice that is outside of Islam.

As for the Tennesse mosque, yeah the community may be growing and they are allowed to, and it is stupid that the townsfolk think that a big mosque means the place is suddenly in danger of losing its identity, but from what I've heard about it the imam was asking for a mosque that is far larger than the muslim population. Where I live, our mosques are relatively small, nothing fancy. No swimming pools, no elevators, no minarets, and guess what, we have never had any problems, and none of that stuff is needed anyway in a house of worship.  We live in dark times, and it's probably better we don't make such ostentation of the houses of God in the west.

I'm sorry and offended you feel I'm demonizing Muslims but I'm not. I just don't trust every imam I hear, and that's something I'm entitled to.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 07:05:56 PM by Spahi »

Offline clefty

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« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2011, 07:35:18 PM »
I just don't trust every imam I hear, and that's something I'm entitled to.

more than entitled...you are commanded NOT to trust man nor his traditions...but God

Love God, your neighbor as yourself...oh and your enemies...by doing His commandments...reading His word

God's kingdom remains spiritual and of free will...not places of worship, traditions, mandated by laws of enforcement and exclusion

certainly not "kill the infidel or heretic"... or impose sharia...or any other form of religious statism

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2009/12/prophet_muhammads_promise_to_christians.html

The Promise to St. Catherine:

"This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world)."

of course these christian allies were eastern orthodox and not crusading western ones...bent on,  you know, world conquest statism and not anything in the spiritual realm

sadly looks like muslim extremists have taken a page out of the vatican playbook and conquest it is...not a far stretch if you consider the theory that rome created islam....

Offline Spahi

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« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2011, 07:48:50 PM »
more than entitled...you are commanded NOT to trust man nor his traditions...but God

Love God, your neighbor as yourself...oh and your enemies...by doing His commandments...reading His word

God's kingdom remains spiritual and of free will...not places of worship, traditions, mandated by laws of enforcement and exclusion

certainly not "kill the infidel or heretic"... or impose sharia...or any other form of religious statism

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2009/12/prophet_muhammads_promise_to_christians.html

The Promise to St. Catherine:

"This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world)."

of course these christian allies were eastern orthodox and not crusading western ones...bent on,  you know, world conquest statism and not anything in the spiritual realm

sadly looks like muslim extremists have taken a page out of the vatican playbook and conquest it is...not a far stretch if you consider the theory that rome created islam....

It wasn't too long after the death of Muhammad that Islam became a religion of set rituals and manmade laws taking precedent even over the original book we believe to be divine. It makes no sense. Peace and love for your fellow man, fight only in self defense, and love God, not traditions are what I see in the Quran.

Offline WindRiverShoshoni

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« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2011, 09:02:12 PM »
I believe we have a misunderstanding.

It appears that we have at least two.

I'm allowed to distrust any imam if I feel like it, but I'm not forcing anyone to accept the opinion.

Ra'uf did not start any controversy, and when the zionists did, he and his people stayed completely away from it for weeks.  When he finally did address it, he did so with a diplomatic finesse that no one could possibly turn into more controversy.  My post was primarily a response to your statement "It seems they begin by causing controversy ...," which is utterly false and a slander against the honor of those muslims.

Have you looked at the Park 51 architecture? It looks totally warped, and not in a good way.

Are you talking about the building architecture or the organizational architecture?  The last time I looked, there were no building architecture plans to look at.

But I assure you I am not shilling here. When I said controversy, I was referring to how the public viewed it, and yeah it's bullsh*t that it would cause such a fuss but it happened anyway.

Standard hasbara attack tactic.  Definitely not the muslims, except perhaps the crazies who have bought into the dialectical materialism of 'Ali Shari'ati, Abul 'Ala Maudoodi, Muhammad and Sayyid Qutb, the other muslim students of Jean-Paul Sartre, and Lenin-Ulianov.

Sceptic raging about stoning being a part of Islam is a lie, yes, which I don't understand why she would think such when she has a site discrediting the hadith that proscribed it in her signature. In the Qur'an everyone that threatens stoning happen to be rejectors of the message, and it remains a barbaric practice that is outside of Islam.

Adultery, apostasy, and abrogation ~ three things falsified by the "scholars" of the Abbasid Tyranny.  When someone mentions any of those three, or 'A'isha's age, or the Banu Qurayza, it's zionazi agitprop.  It's like a trademark or a signature.

As for the Tennesse mosque, yeah the community may be growing and they are allowed to, and it is stupid that the townsfolk think that a big mosque means the place is suddenly in danger of losing its identity, but from what I've heard about it the imam was asking for a mosque that is far larger than the muslim population.

"The townsfolk" don't think that, and the mosque/Islamic Center complex is appropriate to the anticipated needs of the muslim community for the next thirty to fifty years.  It's not a "monument" or a "megachurch," it's a community facility somewhat comparable to a Catholic church/sacristy/rectory/seminary/convent/school complex.  The people of the town had no objections to it.

Where I live, our mosques are relatively small, nothing fancy.  No swimming pools, no elevators, no minarets, and guess what, we have never had any problems, and none of that stuff is needed anyway in a house of worship.  We live in dark times, and it's probably better we don't make such ostentation of the houses of God in the west.

We're not monasteries, and we're not a "club" in need of a clubhouse.  But the masjid is much more than a simple "place of worship."  I agree that they are not palaces either, but the entire world is a masjid for us.  Most masajid in North America are "Islamic Center" facilities that have a space used only for salat and meetings of the jama'ah or majlis, which in some places double as a study hall for college and university students, a lodge for the brotherhood, a school for the children and a school for the adults, and so on.  The masjid is the center of the muslim community, it's not just and "only" a musalla.

I'm sorry and offended you feel I'm demonizing Muslims but I'm not.  I just don't trust every imam I hear, and that's something I'm entitled to.

That's not so.  A muslim trusts another muslim unless and until there is a definite reason to be suspicious.  This applies equally to an imam and to anyone who prays behind an imam.  There is no reason to mistrust Imam 'Abdur-Ra'uf, the outright lies of the Deniers are reason to trust him, not to mistrust him.  And most of what has appeared about him, personally, in the media, is false.  He is what he represents himself to be, and that is well-known, he's been a public figure for a long time.

This is not to say that everything he says or does is right (he's not always right), or that his fiqh is comprehensive and sound (it's not), but his integrity and sincerity are unquestionable ~ and those who impugn his honor with their unlawful suspicions will account for that before ALLAH.

In addition, a muslim does not disclose the faults of another muslim.  This is the defect in the common understanding of hadith as "law" ~ the probity of the reports rests on the faultless public reputations of muslims whose faults would have been concealed by their brothers both in and after their time.  This may be a reasonable standard for judging authenticity in a society where gossip and slander are common habits, but it is not a valid standard in a muslim society.

Finally, you should consider your comments about 'Abdur-Ra'uf, and the muslims in Tennessee, in the context of backbiting and slander.

The bottom line here is that muslims are demonized because we have the keys to success in this life and in the next, that the zionists falsely promise to deliver to the goyim some day, and that the Christians imagine that they have in Jesus ~ success in submission to a Jewish Caesar in this life, success in the hereafter after they die and are buried.  Whether we use those keys or not, we have them, and when people see muslims succeed, they come to get them so they can succeed in this life and, in some cases, in the next.  This is what the zionists fear ~ that others will learn the pathways of success and surpass them; and it is why the zionists must, at all costs, prevent people from giving any regard to the muslims.

Don't help them in their Denial.
It's too dark here.

Offline clefty

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« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2011, 08:10:59 AM »
It wasn't too long after the death of Muhammad that Islam became a religion of set rituals and manmade laws taking precedent even over the original book we believe to be divine. It makes no sense. Peace and love for your fellow man, fight only in self defense, and love God, not traditions are what I see in the Quran.

it does make sense...if you are insecure about your own belief you must convince others to believe as you do...to drown out that doubt...

throughout history doubt has united us...sadly led to wars of conquest and control...

its a spiritual war that makes itself manifest in the physical....

for contol all religions set up harsh rules, regulations,  indoctrinations, penalties,  inquisitions, crusades, jihads, which are all spiritual in origin...rooted in fear

but love casts out fear...even fear of error...

Offline dean_saor

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« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2011, 11:32:51 AM »
It wasn't too long after the death of Muhammad that Islam became a religion of set rituals and manmade laws taking precedent even over the original book we believe to be divine. It makes no sense. Peace and love for your fellow man, fight only in self defense, and love God, not traditions are what I see in the Quran.

I don't know what you're alluding to here. The "set rituals" of Islam are remarkably few - such as for example the various canonical prayers, the method of fasting, and the rituals of the Pilgrimage - and all of these were established during Muhammad's lifetime.

"Man made laws", presumably what are called Positive Laws, are allowed for in the Quran, and the whole process of the adillatu-sh shari'ah (the 6 'sources of the Shari'ah' - some say 4 - i.e. Quran, Sunnah, Ijma', Qiyas, Ijtihad, al 'Adah wa-l 'Urf) derives from these verses. None takes precedence over the Quran.

If there is a clear and unambiguous statement in the Quran (e.g. hurrima 'alaykumu-l lahmu-l khinzir... 'forbidden to you is the flesh of the pig...') then there's no need for further ado.

Where there is a general statement or an ambiguous one, such as occurs over the sanctions about lahwu-l hadith ('idle events') that keep you away from the worship of God then further elaboration is necessary: the operative concept being that they keep you away from worship. So watching an NFL game needn't do that, so it wouldn't be a sanctioned 'idle event'. And neither need listening or playing music; and so on.

The 'further elaboration' is sought from the hadith (what the Prophet said, did, or agreed to), and then down through the adillah until a satisfactory resolution to the problem (mas'alah) is reached. The favoured analogy (qiyas) is with what Christians did in analogous circumstances.

I find that I am increasingly coming across people who are trying to deny or belittle the place of the Traditions in Islam on the one hand, or who are claiming that the Traditions we have are unreliable and so it is better to ignore them. This is in the teeth of clear injunctions in the Quran (e.g. "what the Messenger gives you, take; what he forbids you, leave").

This process began certainly in the 2nd Hijri century when the converso Jew 'Abdullah bin Saba founded Shi'ism. It reappeared with the 18th (Christian) century Wahhabi-ism attributed to Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab al-Tamimi - although who fed the heretical ideas to him remains obscure - and the deviations that it has spawned since. My shaykh said once that the Wahhabis so hate Muhammad that they would remove him from Islam if they could.

I find it suspicious that this anti-hadithism should have reappeared with a renewed vigour in recent years, promoted with enthusiasm by such creatures as David Horowitz and his coterie. It is even more worrying to find quite so many Muslims falling for this nonsense; and more disturbing how they are so enthusiastic about accepting the opinions promoted by the Horowitz-Dershowitz-Spencer-Lewis-Pipes-Geller school.

It ought to be a clear warning to people that it is the same Pharisees who are involved in this who attempted to corrupt the Message brought by the Messiah, and who are still mischief-making within the Christian communities through the Scofield Reference Bible funded by the Zionist financier Stanley Untermeyer.
Cha do dhùin doras nach d'fhosgail doras eile;
No door shut but another door opened

Offline clefty

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« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2011, 06:27:55 PM »
It ought to be a clear warning to people that it is the same Pharisees who are involved in this who attempted to corrupt the Message brought by the Messiah, and who are still mischief-making within the Christian communities through the Scofield Reference Bible funded by the Zionist financier Stanley Untermeyer.

The christian church has long departed the Way...certainly long before Scofield et al...

it is true...Pharisees have been at work trying to establish a global state since before the time of the messiah...

the church has always been their tool...

Offline Spahi

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« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2011, 08:37:06 PM »

Keep these verses in mind:
25:30 Then the Messenger will say: "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."

6:38 Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.

7:32 Say: Who hath forbidden the beautiful (gifts) of Allah, which He hath produced for His servants, and the things, clean and pure, (which He hath provided) for sustenance?

I realize manmade laws are allowed, the problem is hadith very often contradicts the Quran even on basic principles, and if it contradicts God's word, then what good is it for our spiritual life? Many muslims barely read the Quran with intention of gleaning knowledge. Why bother, we have the hadith to clearly explain the 'gaps'. The Quran is just there to read for the beauty of reading, the hadith is there to really 'understand' Islam.

Some reasons why I feel most hadith is corrupted and unreliable:
The prophecies about dajjal and Muhammad knowing signs of the end, when the dajjal is never mentioned in Quran and God says the knowledge of the endtimes is with him alone. Dajjal was obviously incorporated from Christianity and today we live in these self-fulfilled prophecies.

Muslims are taught to believe dogs are unclean and forbidden to keep indoors because they will lose good deeds and angels won't enter, when none of this is in Quran, which shows dogs positively. I happen to like dogs, and when I read something that says my good deeds will run out because I am keeping them, well what the hell, where is the logic in that? Why would angels not enter my house because a dog is there? Why do I lose deeds? Dogs are not always dirty, in fact I find them more clean than the average human being I come across on a regular basis. Also, a human bite is much more dangerous to your health than a dog bite, it's scientifically proven. It's the first reason I began to criticize and examine hadith in a different light. It had nothing to do with that human garbage you mentioned.

Muslims are taught music and drawing are forbidden, that the artist is the worst of humans and will be asked to give life to his pictures on the last day. The artist who never hurt anyone is condemned to hell, but what about the warmongers and the liars? And if we have pictures in the house angels won't enter either. You will also read in hadith that hell is mostly filled with women, even though men have invented all the weapons of mass destruction. Again, none of this is mentioned in Quran.

Muslims are encouraged to grow a beard and take on an Arabic name, because on the last day God won't call on us if we don't have a muslim (aka) Arab name. More irrelevant crap and an insult to God. Why does growing a beard make you somehow more spiritual? I've known awful people who had beards. Are they more of a muslim than me? You know a lot of the crusaders had beards, did they have a better connection with God than I? Again, none of this is mentioned in Quran.

I've read if you don't pull up your pants above ankle level when in prayer then your ankles are in hell. Personally I have yet to notice this in any circumstance. Also, demons will run through any gaps between people in prayer apparently. None of this is in Quran though.

Even the wudu is changed from hadith, with other things added (washing the nose, ears, mouth) which Quran does not command. The traditional system of prayer I'll admit is within in the boundaries of Quran (bowing, prostrating, remembering God) however the book doesn't mention any particular system, which implies it doesn't really matter how you pray, as long as you do those 3 things in it. Of course, if anyone who's not sick or old tried to pray differently he would be considered in error, along with those who don't feel the need to wash the mouth, ears, and nose everytime in wudu.

Many hadith paint Muhammad as a misogynist, warmonger, and paranoid. Funny, this is exactly what the pagans tried to portray him as when he began his mission. Why they are in hadith that is supposed to guide us? Clearly many of the 'converts' to Islam were intent on damaging the believers from within, for the last few hundred years it's been working. Look at Abu Huraira (probably a Yemenite Jew, he certainly has good practice lying), who was accused as a 'storyteller' back when he magically narrated more hadith than other person, despite only meeting Muhammad for a short time. The Shia reject his hadith also, but you will regularly find his hadith being read in mosques all across the world and puzzling those that read them, like at my mosque. Bukhari the Persian as well compiled an impossible amount of hadith in such a short time and many of his, even after passing the sahih test say horrible things about the prophet which I won't bother typing here.

You try to make me look like I hate Muhammad when in fact I love him as our departed prophet, and all the other prophets as well (something many muslims don't really think about)  and as a human being, in that I don't believe his sandals or hair have special properties that many seem to believe (see the Istanbul museum). This is why I have no problem rejecting the lies and stories attributed to him that paint him in a monstrous light. If he was still alive today, of course I would follow him, as the Quran asks, but he isn't, and I just cannot trust most hadith. I have no problem accepting the hadith that do not contradict Quran but those that add to it, or abrogate verses (stoning for adultery, death for apostasy, forbidding foods not forbidden in Quran, being derogatory to women, etc) I DO have a problem with and will not follow.

The system is flawed and corrupted. I will trust God's hadith (Quran) everytime over men's work. Also keep in mind, there have been many who opposed hadith in the last thousand years. It's not a recent development, though I admit it does have its share of shills and deluded fools who are trying to appease the slandering Jews you mentioned and some do seem to dislike Muhammad for some reason. I don't bring up all this to fight with you personally its just how I feel, and the fact I am attacked for it makes me wonder why I even bother. I want the muslims to stop fighting, to come to agreement, and to think more, without having to kowtow to anyone, just like any human being should not have to be enslaved by another. I still attend my regular mosque of Sunnis, I have no problem being with them and I consider them muslims unlike some other extremists in the anti-hadith group. I am not starting a new sect, not claiming prophethood, and not trying force anyone to change their views. I just want to be a muslim.

« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 09:18:40 PM by Spahi »

Offline Spahi

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« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2011, 09:23:16 PM »

WRS I apologize for skipping over your post. I will just say you are correct saying false allegations against anyone are to be avoided unless one is absolutely sure of them. So, how do you feel about the latest accusations against Colonel Gadhafi regarding the supposed mass killings in Libya of which there is no clear proof? I have seen imams calling for his death, where is their solid proof he is guilty as charged? Surely we can't be depending on CNN and other Zio media to tell us truth that hasn't been distorted to all hell. They have spent 4 decades demonizing him.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 09:37:46 PM by Spahi »