Author Topic: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....  (Read 3476 times)

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Offline Jan Robertson

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2010, 08:54:17 AM »
I'm going to break this into a series of individual posts, this being probably the longest, because the size of these posts is getting a little out of hand. But don't worry, I'll address every single segment of your post, because if I don't you'll just accuse me of only picking out the things I "think I can cope with", as you've already have. Meanwhile, I'll ramble a bit. Nothing, of course, that you may not already know, and likely disagree with.


Offerring my replies before they are presented? Oh well, continue ...

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My response to your first post was "All that, just to take a poke at the Bible? Interesting."

And I responded " and you picked out 'the bible' from all that" ...

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You admitted "Yep! Just keeping up with "your" tradition of exposing the jewishness of everything wrong in this world in chaos!" Now you wish to dance away from that admission, in an attempt to gain a little moral ground.
It wasn't even "my" tradition that you stereotypically accused me of having. It was your straw-man's tradition.

Your still present my reply out of contex ... it is everyones (especially 'believers") tradition, habit, proclivity to blame and expose the jew for everything wrong with this world...just a quick perusal of all the threads on this forum (and most others) will give proof to that statement. and the "yep! just keeping up" was a sarcasm.
I keep forgetting I'm talking mainly to people unknowledgeable of the true world around us and don't have the comprehension to recognise fact from fiction.

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Even so, please explain what is wrong with exposing the jewishness at the top of the "ruling elite", unless of course, you'd rather focus further down the food chain.


There is nothing wrong with exposing jews in positions of power and of criminal intent, I do it too, and I also learn from the exposes of others such as yourself. But to do so at the expense of sidestepping more eminent members of the pyramid is folly ... The mistake most people make is their perception of the pyramid of power and the order in which the real power emanates.

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At the beginning of your last post, you say the Bible comment is relevant to indicate the ruling elites control and deception over mankind.


I have already clarified that comment in my previous post

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At the end, you chastise me and say "Either discuss the topics that started this thread (Globalism, Control & Conspiracy) or desist." So is the Bible ON topic or OFF? You can't have it both ways. If it's OFF topic, I won't discuss it IF you won't. If it's ON topic, let's have at it.

The bible is the 'basis' of all aspects of humanity, be it Globalism (Globalization), Control, or (especially) Conspiracy, so it is on topic almost everywhere, However it depends on "the way it is perceived and discussed" that was the point of my comment ... taking exception to a simple question,... "If the PTB can fake (or conspire) 9/11, and the first man on the moon, while waging war to fund the ISS and covering up it's purpose What makes you think the same wasn't done to the Bible."...and turning it into the whole intent of my post was 'insinuation', something you do on a regular basis.

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There are people in this forum who are religious. They believe in the Bible. Some are members of the Church. They're good people. They're valuable to the forum. When you make posts discrediting their personal belief system, accusing it of being the source of all problems, or however you choose to express it at any given time, it's at the very, very least, disrespectful of those fellow posters. Is that what "spirituality" means?


I have never implied they weren't good people, uninformed yes, but never bad. That is YOUR take on my views and you couldn't be more wrong. If I can't present MY beliefs without accepting a religiious 'system', or question other beliefs then it is stalemate and nothing can be achieved regarding "Knowledge" .... I don't have to be disrespectful in my opinionss to get disrespect and insinuation from people like yourself. If you don't like my opinions or what I question then offer your own opinion or comment without an ulterior motive, or don't read, don't reply

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The only time religious people turn a thread onto religion is when they defend their beliefs from attack. And what do you expect them to do? Roll over and wet themselves, and give up their beliefs because you tell them that organized religion is the root of our problems?


Ummm How did I "attack" by questioning a book that was written by flesh and blood men ... Do you mean Everyone should avoid mentioning or commenting on any form of control if it comes from 'organized religion'? That's a really good way to keep ignorance at the fore ... or am I to "roll over and wet myself and give up my beliefs because you tell me 'organized religion' is NOT the root of our problems?"

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That's not the way people work. They get defensive, and hold even more strongly to their beliefs. ,You can't just walk in, and say "I'm right, you're wrong, I'm big, you're little, and there's nothing you can do about it", and expect people to accept it.
.

I have never said "I'm right your wrong" so why say that in this thread? And it's only people who are not confident in their beliefs that get so defensive they become offensive. If you can''t stand the heat get out of the kitchen is my advice.

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I've told you before, when I think that religion is unjustly attacked here in the forum, I'll defend it, even if it's not my own.

You told me that was the wrong reason for being here. I think that blanketly blaming "organized religion" for all the world's ills, in a forum where many of the posters are members of organized religion, is wrong.


And pray tell where I "unjustly attacked" religion?

You're wrong 'again' that is NOT why I told you you were here for the wrong reason, and I told you why in another thread so I won't cook the cabbage twice. Is your needle stuck in a groove?
 
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Why? Besides the aforementioned, "organized religion" does not equal "ruling elite". The "elite's" real power is through money, banking, lobbies, the corporate world, the military-industrial complex. Their real power is secular, fascist. Where it's communistic, it's still bought and paid for by the same "ruling elite". They own everything and control the money supply, and use it to control government, while they use secular liberalism to destroy society. Whenever they've had real power, that's the way they've always done it.

Oh so knowledgeable!!! How do you KNOW so empahatically that "organized religion" does not equal "ruling elite"? Because you have irrefuteable evidence ... or because you 'beleive'. The ruling elite are never likely to expose themselves to the 'public' and of course "they own everything and control the money supply, and use it to control government, while they use secular liberalism to destroy society". And what better way to do it than through "a BELIEF organization"?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Founding Fathers knew that government can’t control the economy without controlling the people. (And so did the ruling elite)."

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

One of the most common statements from the "Religious Right" is that they want this country to "return to the Christian principles on which it was founded".  However, a little research into American history will show that this statement is a lie. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it. They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true.
When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3)   This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike.  They wanted to ensure that no single religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had.  Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms.  The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not once.

The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power of the government is derived from the governed. Up until that time, it was claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The Declaration was a radical departure from the idea of divine authority.

The 1796 treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was "in no sense founded on the Christian religion" (see below). This was not an idle statement, meant to satisfy muslims-- they believed it and meant it. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.


Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Offline AngelOfLight

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2010, 10:03:49 AM »


Spirituality is neither an army, a war, or have soldiers. Nor is it about 'winning' ... It's about freedom ... to be who and what you choose, to be a free thinker, an individual thinker,  without the yoke of 'compliance'. 

Oh I get it, it's about individualism? Individualism brings diversity, diversity of though, opinions, solutions and racial diversity too. Can two things of the apposite co-exist  together? Isn't modern America good enough example of individualism? Aren't we all in a war for our GOD given right "Freedom", is it us who are attacking others or are the organized religions(elites, societies etc) who are  attacking us and taking out freedoms away and who is winning? How can this spirituality face the organized religion that has taken over every institution in US and the world for that matter? Should criminals have "Spiritual Freedoms" too? If not  does that mean that they should comply to the will of the majority?
 

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You name the people at the top of religion so we can stop blaming their 'creation'.

Example: US constitution is what made America the pearl of the world. A pearl is precious so it was attacked and today we have an alien force controlling this pearl through deception manipulation of thought, bribes etc. Now if we go by your way of thinking we should blame what made America a pearl because it must be, as you say " the creation" of those in power today?!
Should we blame the gun manufacturers and prohibit them from making any, or anyone for buying any because there's so much violence in our streets? After all they are the creationists of guns.

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Well free thinking would be a good starting point no organization needed for that and at no cost!

And you expect the masses to read about your theory how exactly?

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Everything cost money in todays society because that is what 'those at the top' created organizations to do, to created wealth for themselves, their 'organizations', and hardship for the rest of us .... and the followers of said organizations makes their agenda that much easier to accomplish. They win we lose!!

If you read carefully I already stated that Spirituality is a religion ... "without organization".

The truth shall set you free!



Money is a means for people to do business, neither good or bad. Bad people use it to fulfill their spiritual freedoms just as good people use it to fulfill theirs.
Again the blame is not laid  properly.
Judge me if you're with out sin!

Offline Jan Robertson

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2010, 10:59:48 PM »
[Spirituality is neither an army, a war, or have soldiers. Nor is it about 'winning' ... It's about freedom ... to be who and what you choose, to be a free thinker, an individual thinker,  without the yoke of 'compliance'. 

Oh I get it, it's about individualism?


No, you very obviously DON'T "get it" I said "individual THINKER" and like all who want to destroy anything or anyone that promotes a theory that threatens their own, turns particular WORDS that can be USED into an "ISM" and thereby render it evil in the same way that the bible turns being human into being 'of' sin.

Before you make anymore convoluted and stupid comments try learning how to read the written word in a literal sense and not muddy the waters with your own take on anothers (that's someone elses btw) explanation.

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Individualism brings diversity, diversity of though, opinions, solutions and racial diversit too. Can two things of the apposite co-exist  together?

What opposites?

 
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Isn't modern America good enough example of individualism?


Whaaat!!! ? America has more "collective" thought than a hive ... when it comes to the subject of "organized".... and they (organized elite and those that 'follow") spread those (thoughts) around like manure. There are no individual bees in a hive, and organized religions are hives.

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Aren't we all in a war for our GOD given right "Freedom", is it us who are attacking others or are the organized religions(elites, societies etc) who are  attacking us and taking out freedoms away and who is winning?


This is where you get really weird and contradict your own comments as well as mine ... You are merely rearranging and substituing words that I have already said in this thread ... As for "freedom", to obtain it one must first learn what real freedom is ... your take on freedom differs greatly from the freedom I advocate. and the freedom I advocte is first learning how to "think" then learning how to apply those "thoughts" ... but I digress (for the sake of trying to find room in an already overpopulated mind). This will not resonate on your agenda anyway because you do not comprehend 'thought' or the power it 'can' achieve in the way the Creator meant for it to do .... until the advent of organized religions.

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How can this spirituality face the organized religion that has taken over every institution in US and the world for that matter?


With thought!!! and rejecting what organized religion gave us in the first place, a god that represents themselves. and respecting the true Creator and 'his' creations.

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Should criminals have "Spiritual Freedoms" too? If not  does that mean that they should comply to the will of the majority?

 
Yes they should. Spirituality IS "spiritual freedom" and if criminals, or anyone who has 'lost their way" had followed the creators
given conscience', in all probability would not have become criminals in the first place. Unfortunately the elite created the bible in order to 'replace the conscience', and wide spread 'crime' has become rampant.

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You name the people at the top of religion so we can stop blaming their 'creation'.[/]
 
Example: US constitution is what made America the pearl of the world. A pearl is precious so it was attacked and today we have an alien force controlling this pearl through deception manipulation of thought, bribes etc
.

A superfluous comment of well known facts that doesn't come close to NAMING those at the top ... ???

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Now if we go by your way of thinking we should blame what made America a pearl because it must be, as you say " the creation" of those in power today?!

Whoaaa!!! You have absolutely no idea about my way oif thinking so don't present YOUR take, of my thoughts, as being what I have said, or what I might have said ... My thoughts about America do not in any way resemble yours.

1. America is not or ever was a pearl, either literally or idealogically. It was a large continent of riches, all earthbound, and was even richer before the elite recognised it's 'potential' as a safe hideaway and a source of wealth and 'power'. Able to build a New World (order), new laws, new customs, without the influence of European royalty and customs to hamper their endeavours.

2. The pioneers made the country great, not the elite or the founding fathers http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/watch-unto-prayer/mason.html saying otherwise (in my opinion) is a treason. Learn more about your founding fathers before giving them more accolades, and minimising the efforts of your poineers who were the true backbone of America]

 
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Should we blame the gun manufacturers and prohibit them from making any, or anyone for buying any because there's so much violence in our streets? After all they are the creationists of guns..

What crap! this has no comparison to my comments obout conspiracy, religion or spirituality. Only a government preparing to betray it's people attempt to disarm them, and guns were not created by the elite ... they did however recognise their 'control' and introduced the 'war machine', along with the mentality, to support war in general.

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Well free thinking would be a good starting point no organization needed for that and at no cost!
 
And you expect the masses to read about your theory how exactly?


"Read my thoughts!" ;)

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Everything costs money in todays society because that is what 'those at the top' created organizations to do,
 
  Money is a means for people to do business, neither good or bad. Bad people use it to fulfill their spiritual freedoms just as good people use it to fulfill theirs.
Again the blame is not laid  properly.

Again you got it skew-whiff!  Blame was apportioned correctly. I said nothing about money being bad (although the way it is represented today it certainly is, ie $US fiat money). What I said in the above comment was 'literal' with no insinuation as to 'who' uses it or why.

Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Offline DrNope

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2010, 06:14:53 AM »
You name the people at the top of religion so we can stop blaming their 'creation'.

You know very well there is no "top of religion". As I've said, "organized religion" is not a monolith. It's not some giant mind-control octopus at the top of civilization with its tentacles reaching down through the government and corporate world, and into our individual brains, enslaving everyone and taking all their money. It's cute imagery, a bad metaphor, and a simplistic generalization. Like the sweeping generalization "organized religion", it's not based in reality.

Perhaps if you could point out "which" religion, more specifically than "organized", your question could be answered.

Offline Jan Robertson

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2010, 10:25:58 AM »


You know very well there is no "top of religion". As I've said, "organized religion" is not a monolith. It's not some giant mind-control octopus at the top of civilization with its tentacles reaching down through the government and corporate world, and into our individual brains, enslaving everyone and taking all their money. It's cute imagery, a bad metaphor, and a simplistic generalization. Like the sweeping generalization "organized religion", it's not based in reality.

Gosh, and to think I believed you when you said:

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But don't worry, I'll address every single segment of your post, because if I don't you'll just accuse me of only picking out the things I "think I can cope with",

And here you are doing just that, and to top it off you are repeating yourself with a statement I have already answered  ie.

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Christianity is not some monolithic entity.

to which I replied: "Oh but it IS a monolithic entity" ...
 Monolithic: ..massive: imposing in size or bulk or solidity; massive sculptures"; "a monumental scale" characterized by massiveness and rigidity and total uniformity; "a monolithic society"; "a monolithic worldwide movement"

I have also given my views on 'who's on top' in a post re. 'hierarchy' to AngelOfLight:

"The 'pyramid' looks like this:

"The ruling elite" Totally proteced and never seen or heard from directly. *(unless through a benevolent or charitable act)

Organized Religion: Diverse and worldwide to 'cater' to all beliefs, and all cultures.

Multinational Corporations: Have no loyalty to any country, and have no borders to hinder their 'organizations' and trade.

Government: Answerable to the banking Corporations and reliiant on funds from the International bankers (Fed, world bank, IMF)

The lower echelons should need no summary"

It's amazing how many times I must repeat myself to accomodate your sensibilities, or is it just your way of stuffing up threads, and diverting information?

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Perhaps if you could point out "which" religion, more specifically than "organized", your question could be answered.

Sigh! Another question in 'disguise' rather than a reply ... But I have plenty of time and patience.

ALL religions that "control" are 'organized. There is no WHICH religion!  Any religion that guides through books, bibles, and 'laws' intended to control and influence behaviour, thinking, and belief. are "organized". ie they usurp freewill, influence emotions (including 'spiritual' emotions), over-ride conscience, direct 'attitudes', and incite racism. They also divide families, friends and societies. All for the love of a God/Allah/Yahweh or whatever name they have for their 'all mighty' "leader".

You'll find the major religions here: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Offline DrNope

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2010, 10:36:41 AM »
That is where you and your ilk make their fatal mistake because the ones who 'created the 'school', dictate to the teachers, influence 'thinking' and form 'beliefs', ARE the top of the food chain. We are the little fry that are being eaten. What you don't seem to realise is that their relevance and their identities are kept behind a veil of secrecy in the form of religion ... from there they can dictate whatever they like and the small fry will accept their 'words', and heed the 'laws' ... the business corporates are next on the chain who dictate to the governments, who in turn dictate to us.

"Fatal mistake"? Good grief.

It's secular. It IS school. It IS teachers, it's government and corporate, it's the MSM, it's Hollywood, it's music and the arts, it's newscasts, newspapers, literature, non-fiction. It all pushes hard to move society in a constant secular liberal-progressive leftward direction, away from religion. The ACLU and their ilk, along with the courts, enforce it. Schools and Universities indoctrinate us and our children, and their children. The ultimate goal, as you know, is to turn us all into mindless consumers, spending everything at the sight of a commercial, and loving the hold big corporate and government has over us.

Religion is just a tool to your "elite", inasmuch pro-zionist sects can fool people into believing that Israel  is "chosen", and democracy and ally. Many know better.

Modern history should tell you that the more control the "elite" has, the more they minimize or try to eliminate religion. Look at communism, with Russia, a prime "elite" example. The state didn't promote religion to control people, it tried to destroy religion. With either side of the "elite" coin, communism or capitalism, religion is neither needed or wanted, it's only used when possible, and ulimately supressed and eliminated. It's a Protocol  IV thing.


Religion exists today, to the degree it does, in spite of it, not because of it. Religion is suppressed to a great degree, in the public sector, at least Christianity is. If any "organized" religion has any real power today, it's only Judaism, in the western world. There's a freaking jewish Menorah on the White House lawn, for God's sake. There's NO cross, and none are allowed. The pagan Christmas tree is there, as part of the secular make-over Christmas got from the jews, to turn it into a non-religious commercial money machine. Jesus is replaced by Santa Clause, and Chri$tma$ exists to benefit our Corporate Masters.

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The 'pyramid' looks like this:

"The ruling elite" Totally proteced and never seen or heard from directly.

Organized Religion: Diverse and worldwide to 'cater' to all beliefs, and all cultures.

Multinational Corporations: Have no loyalty to any country, and have no borders to hinder their 'organizations' and trade.

Government: Answerable to the banking Corporations and reliiant on funds from the International bankers (Fed, world bank, IMF)

The lower echelons should need no summary


That's pretty good, and almost correct. as a general hierarchy. 
Except now your sweeping generalization "organized religion" gets even bigger, catering to "all beliefs and all cultures". It's as absurd as saying "organized business, diverse and worldwide", under the premise that all businesses are just creations of and controlled by an "elite", catering to consumers of all tastes at all pricepoints.
There's a grain of truth in both arguments, but to claim that all are connected because they all fall under a generic label is fallacious.

33% of the world is Christian, the largest sect is Catholic. Even that is divided. The other sects have no real connection to it or other sects, except for belief in its founder, JC. Next in size is Islam at 21%. It's divided as well, with no single controlling authority except it's founder (PBUH). Next is "Non-religious" at 16%, with no controlling authority there. Next is Hindu at 14%. The remaining 16% is an amalgam that might loosely be considered "paganism" of some sort. How on earth can this hodgepodge of beliefs be considered "organized" in ANY sense except under the Dewey Decimal System in your local Library?

Oh wait, there's the Jew. A scant 14 million worldwide, they manage to work their way to the top positions in the Western World. Whether religious or racial, they self-identify as jew first. Their controlling authority is talmudism. It's "Is it good for jews", first, only, and always. There's your "organized". There's your "monolith". .2% (decimal intended), that's two tenths of one percent, of world population, is at the top of, and dominates, western civilization. Doesn't that throw up a flag? And not a "false flag", a RED FLAG.

Replace organized religion in your pyramid with "organized" Jewish Corporate and Banking Elite, and you have something. Then the question simply becomes, "Is there a higher elite than that, controlling them, or is the Jewish elite at the apex?" Logic dictates that a higher one isn't necessary since jews go as high as we can see. It seems that the "Invisible elite" or "invisible illuminati" may be just a ploy to take blame and focus off of the real "elite".

Offline DrNope

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2010, 02:17:20 PM »
Offerring my replies before they are presented? Oh well, continue ...

Clearly, I was referring to your post, Reply #11, which I was directly adressing. As I said, I'll get to each and every point in it.  AS I HAVE TIME, which apparently is not as unlimited as yours. And in my not-unlimited time, I'll type faster, and forego proofreading, to increase my output so you don't accuse me of only picking out the things I "think I can cope with" as you do yet again, below in Reply #24. Not to worry, I can handle it, I just don't always have time to keep up with it in a manner that you consider timely.

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And I responded " and you picked out 'the bible' from all that" ...

You made two different responses in two posts. I quoted and adressed one per response, IN individual  context, which were both different, as I pointed out..

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Your still present my reply out of contex ... it is everyones (especially 'believers") tradition, habit, proclivity to blame and expose the jew for everything wrong with this world...just a quick perusal of all the threads on this forum (and most others) will give proof to that statement. and the "yep! just keeping up" was a sarcasm.
I keep forgetting I'm talking mainly to people unknowledgeable of the true world around us and don't have the comprehension to recognise fact from fiction.

Two responses, two contexts, again, each dealt with accordingly.
Now it's "everyones" tradition? Good grief. Again, your sweeping generalities get ever more sweeping.
Many do it, and get called out for doing so, and told to stop. Others don't do it.  It's certainly not "everyone".
A common accusation in the forum, thrown at "believers" in general, is that "believers" consider jews as "chosen", and are pro-zionist. And here you're saying they blame jews for all ills. Some do, some don't.

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There is nothing wrong with exposing jews in positions of power and of criminal intent, I do it too, and I also learn from the exposes of others such as yourself. But to do so at the expense of sidestepping more eminent members of the pyramid is folly ... The mistake most people make is their perception of the pyramid of power and the order in which the real power emanates.

A major problem is that you believe the people at the top are "totally  protected, never seen or heard from". If they are, how do you propose to deal with an invisible, hidden enemy? You can't. You have to deal with the power structure that you can see. That's no mistake, that's reality.

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The bible is the 'basis' of all aspects of humanity, be it Globalism (Globalization), Control, or (especially) Conspiracy, so it is on topic almost everywhere, However it depends on "the way it is perceived and discussed" that was the point of my comment ... taking exception to a simple question,... "If the PTB can fake (or conspire) 9/11, and the first man on the moon, while waging war to fund the ISS and covering up it's purpose What makes you think the same wasn't done to the Bible."...and turning it into the whole intent of my post was 'insinuation', something you do on a regular basis.

It's the basis for the religious beliefs of about 54% of the world. NOT  "all aspects of humanity" including Globalism.. Get it right. Your sweeping generalizations are as tedious and annoying as they are false. That 54% is deeply divided between Christianity and Islam, which are both deeply divided within themselves. There is NO consensus on anything EXCEPT that there is a God The Creator.
Intent or afterthought, I asked you a simple question, which you could have easily ignored or blown off. Or simply quickly addressed. You followed with a post on "Can we replace organized religion with spirituality?". If you're going to complain that I respond to things YOU  POST, DON'T POST THEM.

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I have never implied they weren't good people, uninformed yes, but never bad. That is YOUR take on my views and you couldn't be more wrong. If I can't present MY beliefs without accepting a religiious 'system', or question other beliefs then it is stalemate and nothing can be achieved regarding "Knowledge" .... I don't have to be disrespectful in my opinionss to get disrespect and insinuation from people like yourself. If you don't like my opinions or what I question then offer your own opinion or comment without an ulterior motive, or don't read, don't reply

You refer to people as uninformed, unenlightened, ignorant, simply because they don't agree with you. You assume it's because they know less than you. That's arrogant and condescending. You can present your beliefs without all that. No one expects or wants you to "accept a religious system". I'm saying that you ARE sometimes disrespectful, and when you call me ignorant or assume I'm less knowledgeable simply because we disagree, then returning the favor would seem to be fair play. There's no ulterior motive in arguing that you're wrong in your understanding of "organized religion", or that you're condescending in saying others are ignorant, uninformed, or "unable to cope" with your posts. I'm not arguing your faith, your ideology, but simply your arguments against "organized religion". Arguing that someone else's faith is ignorant, uninformed, and unenlightened is your schtick.
 
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Ummm How did I "attack" by questioning a book that was written by flesh and blood men ... Do you mean Everyone should avoid mentioning or commenting on any form of control if it comes from 'organized religion'? That's a really good way to keep ignorance at the fore ... or am I to "roll over and wet myself and give up my beliefs because you tell me 'organized religion' is NOT the root of our problems?"

The Bible is, as you know, a collection of books telling the story of people over millennia, and their God. Does pointing that out somehow discredit it? Of course men wrote it. That's not in dispute. But when it's blamed for all our ills by non-believers, the faithful will respond accordingly. That's to be expected, isn't it? And when someone thinks that your entire premise that it's the root of all our ills, is wrong, response to that is to be expected too, isn't it? I don't care if we argue the topic to hell and back. I'm just saying you should be a little less condescending in your expressed tone, to those you argue with. You may see yourself as the beneficent wise woman and teacher, that we ignorant folk desperately need, but you won't endear yourself to us by expressing that. . Or as Batman once said, "You can THINK I'm stupid, just don't talk to me like I'm stupid".


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I have never said "I'm right your wrong" so why say that in this thread? And it's only people who are not confident in their beliefs that get so defensive they become offensive. If you can''t stand the heat get out of the kitchen is my advice.

You haven't used those specific words, but that's often your tone. We're all ignorant or uninformed if we disagree with you. That's the mark of "lack of confidence", always trying to prove you're somehow superior.

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You're wrong 'again' that is NOT why I told you you were here for the wrong reason, and I told you why in another thread so I won't cook the cabbage twice. Is your needle stuck in a groove?

It most certainly is.
I  said "I signed up because I got sick of reading all the Church-bashing, and wanted to toss in my 2 cents"
You said "Then you are here for the wrong reasons, this is a forum for truth and peace for all of mankind." and proceed to launch into a rant   "Religion is the enemy". So much for truth and peace.
I said This forum is for many things. As the forum itself says, its "An independent forum for Individual Sovereigns ... and those aspiring to be.", although its scope seems much wider, thankfully."
And you wonder why I keep requoting both you and me. It's because you keep denying and backpeddling.
Or is it simply a matter of your newer posts superceding and overriding your previous ones?
 
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Oh so knowledgeable!!! How do you KNOW so empahatically that "organized religion" does not equal "ruling elite"? Because you have irrefuteable evidence ... or because you 'beleive'. The ruling elite are never likely to expose themselves to the 'public' and of course "they own everything and control the money supply, and use it to control government, while they use secular liberalism to destroy society". And what better way to do it than through "a BELIEF organization"?

And how do you KNOW so emphatically that it DOES?  Is it because YOU have irrefutable evidence, or because YOU believe? And now you claim that a "BELIEF organization" controls everything including money, and promotes secular liberalism. Who owns Hollywood and the MSM? Who owns the Fed? Who owns global corporations? Who blew up the WTC? Who got us into Iraq and Afghanistan? Who wants us in Iran? Ad Infinitum. There's your "belief organization".

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"The Founding Fathers knew that government can’t control the economy without controlling the people. (And so did the ruling elite)."

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

Is this part of your argument, or just another of your obligatory pokes at religion? That article is neither new, or undisputed truth. The founders didn't want an official religion, like  was in England and Europe. That's not in dispute. The statement in the article, "They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true." is a blatant lie. Some were Deists, some were Christian.

Jefferson, while not believing in the divinity of Jesus, said "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus".

Jefferson also said "Religion is well supported; of various kinds, indeed, but all good enough; all sufficient to preserve peace and order."

George Washington said "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."

John Quincy Adams said "The United States of America were no longer colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians."

Other founders differ, and of course there were Deists, but to say there were no Christian founders or Christian influence is a lie.

Offline DrNope

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2010, 03:20:51 PM »
No, you very obviously DON'T "get it"
"...the same way that the bible turns being human into being 'of' sin.

Before you make anymore convoluted and stupid comments try learning how to read the written word in a literal sense and not muddy the waters with your own take on anothers (that's someone elses btw) explanation.

Another quick point you can turn into a filibuster: The Bible SAYS that Jesus died to absolve us of sin. We are no longer sinners. I've posted on that, ad finitum, in Philosophy and Religion. I'm not quoting scripture in here, because this isn't a religious thread, but it's there, literally. I don't expect you to know that, because you've probably never read it.

So, to quote one of your ad hominem insults back to you, "Before you make anymore convoluted and stupid comments try learning how to read the written word in a literal sense and not muddy the waters with your own take on anothers"

Offline DrNope

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2010, 03:31:52 PM »

Gosh, and to think I believed you when you said:
And here you are doing just that, and to top it off you are repeating yourself with a statement I have already answered  ie.
to which I replied: "Oh but it IS a monolithic entity" ...
 Monolithic: ..massive: imposing in size or bulk or solidity; massive sculptures"; "a monumental scale" characterized by massiveness and rigidity and total uniformity; "a monolithic society"; "a monolithic worldwide movement"

I have to repeat because your answers are often not answers. They're often evasive wordplay and games. Even your wordplay doesn't describe "organized religion". I'm amazed you can't see that.
There's no rigidity, no total uniformity. I've explained that in a previous post about Christianity and Islam, and the many many divisions within both. The ONLY thing they all agree on is God the Creator. There's no consensus on who or what  Jesus was, or even on the relevance of the Bible.

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I have also given my views on 'who's on top' in a post re. 'hierarchy' to AngelOfLight:
It's amazing how many times I must repeat myself to accomodate your sensibilities, or is it just your way of stuffing up threads, and diverting information?

I know, I saw it and posted regarding it. How many times did you have to repeat that pyramid again?

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Sigh! Another question in 'disguise' rather than a reply ... But I have plenty of time and patience.

You said: You name the people at the top of religion so we can stop blaming their 'creation'.

I said: There IS no "top of religion". Ergo, it can't be answered, so I asked you to be more specific. Is that a problem? Apparently so. Since you can't, you expand your sweeping generalization, below. Can you name the people at the "top of religion"?

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ALL religions that "control" are 'organized. There is no WHICH religion!  Any religion that guides through books, bibles, and 'laws' intended to control and influence behaviour, thinking, and belief. are "organized". ie they usurp freewill, influence emotions (including 'spiritual' emotions), over-ride conscience, direct 'attitudes', and incite racism. They also divide families, friends and societies. All for the love of a God/Allah/Yahweh or whatever name they have for their 'all mighty' "leader".

You'll find the major religions here: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Organized to some degree or another, some a lot, some very little. But not organized as a monolithic entity.
In fact, parents, schools and government, and even the MSM fit your description quite well. Most books ever written, fact or fiction, intended to influence the reader to some degree. Same with all media. All law. It's all about controlling behavior, from cradle to grave. Religion plays a part among believers, but to what degree depends on both the religion and the particular believer. Jesus teaches to love and respect one another as oneself. Don't lie, cheat or steal, and always wear clean underwear, that sort of thing. Isn't that spiritualistic? It's man's varied interpretations, not the Bible who is responsible, when beliefs stray from that. Man corrupts religion, religion doesn't corrupt man.

But thank you for the link, and your "assumption" that I need information on comparative religion. But I'm not the one who doesn't understand it.

Offline DrNope

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2010, 04:41:08 PM »
Here's something more in keeping with the subjects named in the title of the thread, directed at no one in particular.

Dave McGowan is a very interesting writer. He's written books and has a site covering a number of subjects, including 911, the moon landing hoax, and more. I read his book "Understanding the F-Word: American Fascism and the Politics of Illusion" recently, which is a highly entertaining read, full of info, and very on-topic.
Some of the sections on his site are:

"Wagging the Moondoggie"
"September 11, 2001 Revisited: The Series"
"Inside The LC: The Strange but Mostly True Story of Laurel Canyon and the Birth of the Hippie Generation"

The latter ties in the Laurel Canyon phenomena  with government conspiracy.

http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/

Offline Jan Robertson

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2010, 01:17:56 AM »
 
I will be splitting the posts into parts because to answer you in a way you seem to require in order to follow my 'reasoning' makes them too long ... even for me  ;D

Fatal mistake"? Good grief.
 
It's secular. It IS school. It IS teachers, it's government and corporate, it's the MSM, it's Hollywood, it's music and the arts, it's newscasts, newspapers, literature, non-fiction. It all pushes hard to move society in a constant secular liberal-progressive leftward direction, away from religion. The ACLU and their ilk, along with the courts, enforce it. Schools and Universities indoctrinate us and our children, and their children. The ultimate goal, as you know, is to turn us all into mindless consumers, spending everything at the sight of a commercial, and loving the hold big corporate and government has over us.

I agree it IS secular, teachers, government corporates, MSM, music, and the arts, (hollywood, newscasts and newspapers and all literature come under the MSM umbrella) that TEACH however this list excludes the greatest teacher of all "Religion". WHO are the ones who 'controls' all of them.

Those "at the top" ARE secular and they orchestrate all other controls like a game of chess. this is what I meant about "fatal mistake", yes, you all know the seeable, the knowable, the obvious, but you then "ignore" the other obvious fact, "Who moves the pawns, the bishops, the towers, the knights" in this 'game' of war and strategy? ...

There is always someone (in this case plural the someone) backstage "directing", and then there are the PRODUCERS ... Why do you think "they" are so good at movie making, and all news outlets? NONE of the above are truthful, ALL of the above are "controlling", but they are merely the 'screws', the correctional officers, and as in all prisons ("Earth" is our prison) the warden goes about virtually immune from blame for the treatment of the prisoners. too many people tend to ignore the fact that religion, movies, schools and prisons mimic the real life scenario, and it's the reason why so many are living an illusion. Everyone is so "distracted" by the forest that they fall to look beyond the trees towards the horizon.

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Religion is just a tool to your "elite", inasmuch pro-zionist sects can fool people into believing that Israel  is "chosen", and democracy and ally. Many know better.
 
Modern history should tell you that the more control the "elite" has, the more they minimize or try to eliminate religion. Look at communism, with Russia, a prime "elite" example. The state didn't promote religion to control people, it tried to destroy religion. With either side of the "elite" coin, communism or capitalism, religion is neither needed or wanted, it's only used when possible, and ulimately supressed and eliminated. It's a Protocol  IV thing.

What confuses freedom fighters and religious 'sects' (using your words) is they do not understand the 'Hierachy' of the pyramid. The Apex (the hidden elite) created a situation where their office bearers, became hungry for 'position' and they began jostling for 'top position' within the hierachy and eventually split into FACTIONS, Today they are England, Russia, America, Islam. NONE of the factions want to destroy the hidden elite because that is their roots, and their security ... their power. So they limit their in-fighting amongst themselves while still forming a protective barrier around the 'capstone'.

As for destroying religion they don't want to 'destroy it, they want to change it to a generic brand of ONE religion, and they can't do that until they 'negate' the ones in existence ... Why do you think we have the war on terror (Islam) today, and denouncing popes and pedephile priests while still promoting the holohoax (and the menorah on the white house lawn) they want ... no NEED a generic form of judaism to replace the religions that have become hard to 'justify' in the wake of scandals from within every church. Religion is the reins for 'control' removing them totally would be disasterous for them, for then there would be no sanctuary no haven for them to hide, they would become visible to the world.

Lift the veil and develop the real spirit of mankind the way Jesus tried to teach, spread his word  ... but in the way he truly intended,  a religion without man-made 'controls'.  Reveal the true "Knowledge that the elite have hidden from us since the "garden of Eden" (the original state of our Earth).
 
Yes it is a protocol IV thing, but like most people you read the Protocols like you read the bible ... and that's because they were written by the same entity, there are the same traps and double entendres in both. Try reading it in the same way they "think" especially part 1. then skip down to Protocol 24 and read it carefully, then ponder the signature. Ie.
Signed by the representative of
Zion, of the 33rd Degree

To read it properly you have to read both versions of the Protocols, as the original translation http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.htm has the signature attached, but the Modern English version is easier to read. http://iamthewitness.com/Protocols-in-Modern-English.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Protocol #4 – Materialism to Replace Religion

1.  Every republic passes through several stages.  The first of these is the early days of mad raging by the blind mob, tossed here and there, to and fro.  The second is demagogy which leads to anarchy and that inevitably leads to despotism.  This is not a legal and observable, and therefore responsible, type of despotism.  Rather it’s a hidden form of despotism that’s in the hands of some secret organization.  This organization is unscrupulous because it works behind the backs of the people using agents who have no accountability, and who don’t serve the people, only the organization.  These agents are continually changing and this benefits the organization because it doesn’t have give them special rewards for long times in service.

2.  Who or what has the ability to overthrow an invisible force?  Because that is precisely what our Force is.  Gentile-based Freemasonry serves as a smokescreen for us and our plans.  But the plan of action of our Force, even its very existence, remains an unknown mystery to the people.

3.  Even freedom might be harmless and have its place in our State economy without harming the well-being of the people if it is based on a faith in God and on the brotherhood of humanity – providing that it remains disconnected with the concept of equality.  Equality is negated by the very laws of creation, for these laws have established subordination.

With faith such as this, a people might be governed by a trusteeship of parishes, and would walk contentedly and humbly under the guiding hand of its spiritual pastor while submitting to the plans of God upon earth.

This is the reason why it is essential for us to undermine all faith, to tear out of the mind of the Goyim and the principle of ‘God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit’, and to put in its place arithmetical calculations and material needs.

4.  In order to give the Goyim no time to think and notice what is happening, their minds must be diverted towards industry and trade.  Thus, all the nations will be swallowed up in the pursuit of gain and, in the race for it, they won’t notice their common enemy.

But again, in order that freedom may once and for all disintegrate, and ruin the communities of the Goyim, we must put industry on a speculative basis.  The result of this will be that the wealth which is mined from the earth will not be invested in productive industry, but will pass to institutions that deal in speculation (finance gambling), which are under our ownership.

5.  The intensified struggle for superiority and the shocks delivered to economic life will create, no, have already created, disenchanted, cold and heartless communities.

Such communities will lose interest in, and foster a strong aversion toward sound political management and religion. Their only guide will be that of monetary gain, i.e. Gold, which they will erect into a bona fide cult for the sake of those material delights which it can give.

Then a day of reckoning will come when, not for the sake of righteousness, not even to win wealth, but solely out of hatred towards those privileged, the lower classes of the Goyim will follow our lead and rise against our rivals for power: the "intellectuals" of the Goyim.

Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Offline Jan Robertson

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2010, 01:42:25 AM »
Religion exists today, to the degree it does, in spite of it, not because of it. Religion is suppressed to a great degree, in the public sector, at least Christianity is. If any "organized" religion has any real power today, it's only Judaism, in the western world. There's a freaking jewish Menorah on the White House lawn, for God's sake. There's NO cross, and none are allowed. The pagan Christmas tree is there, as part of the secular make-over Christmas got from the jews, to turn it into a non-religious commercial money machine. Jesus is replaced by Santa Clause, and Chri$tma$ exists to benefit our Corporate Masters.

"Religion" exists today because it has been constantly reviewed and change made to suit the changing eras. I agree that judaism holds the 'reins' of power I have never said differently. To understand what I have said (and I have not altered or contradicted any of it) is to comprehend the written word (and by that I mean REALLY comprehend, not just read and go "ahuh I get it"), and to take all that is said into the equation. I can't explain this any better in polite terms ... the reason I explain my views the way I do is because to give it to peopel "like it is" would not be considered by anyone who follows religious dogma, and those who cannot recognize symbolism in the written world and everyday life ... It isn't considered even when presented with truth and proof, so the only thing left is shock value and give something they can attempt to explain.

Symbolism is the key that unlocks the doors to knowledge, but unfortunately the religious among you do not want to recognize what that symbolism is spread through their 'faith', yet it (symbolism) is 'out there', 'in your face', and telling the truth for all to see, but to understand the sinificance you first you have to comprehend the english language, and 'they' don't teach that in schools today. When I was going to school "comprehension" was a subject of it's own and you couldn't pass the English exams without it. Maybe that's the reason you find my post hard to follow. Comprehension is a lot like symbolism, Sentences like symbols have to be interpreted.   

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The 'pyramid' looks like this:...

That's pretty good, and almost correct. as a general hierarchy. 
Except now your sweeping generalization "organized religion" gets even bigger, catering to "all beliefs and all cultures". It's as absurd as saying "organized business, diverse and worldwide", under the premise that all businesses are just creations of and controlled by an "elite", catering to consumers of all tastes at all pricepoints.
There's a grain of truth in both arguments, but to claim that all are connected because they all fall under a generic label is fallacious.

Is this an each way bet in order to avoid compromise? I could say your arguments are based on unsound reasoning too because yours are based only on what you 'learn' from the MSM, and even you have said how 'unsound' that is.

When speaking of religion in here (as elsewhere), one has to be very 'restricted' in what one has to say or they come under-fire, and the reason I get so much 'schtick' (picked up that word from this forum before the change of leaders ;) because I am kinda tired of having to explain every DETAIL in detail.

What is absurd is the fact you can't absorb that business IS organized, Religion IS busines, and both ARE worldwide, they ARE controlled, BY the elite, ARE catered for in ALL cultures, ALL beliefs, and DIVERSIFIED to suit the purepose they were intended FOR.... It's all about GOALS to acheive.

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33% of the world is Christian, the largest sect is Catholic. Even that is divided

The final stage of "divide and conquer"

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The other sects have no real connection to it or other sects, except for belief in its founder, JC.

And that doesn't strike you as "odd"? Of course they are 'connected', everything in the universe is connected, especially all the sects of christianity because they were born from the same source, first from pagans, to  judaism, and  then christianity

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Next in size is Islam at 21%. It's divided as well, with no single controlling authority except it's founder (PBUH). Next is "Non-religious" at 16%, with no controlling authority there. Next is Hindu at 14%. The remaining 16% is an amalgam that might loosely be considered "paganism" of some sort. How on earth can this hodgepodge of beliefs be considered "organized" in ANY sense except under the Dewey Decimal System in your local Library?

As I have already said it's all part of Divesification. You can't have an enemy without a reason to hate another 'culture' ... Always remember the chess game, a game of war, strategy and 'winning'.

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Oh wait, there's the Jew. A scant 14 million worldwide, they manage to work their way to the top positions in the Western World. Whether religious or racial, they self-identify as jew first. Their controlling authority is talmudism. It's "Is it good for jews", first, only, and always. There's your "organized". There's your "monolith". .2% (decimal intended), that's two tenths of one percent, of world population, is at the top of, and dominates, western civilization. Doesn't that throw up a flag? And not a "false flag", a RED FLAG

Yeah! isn't it marvellous how they create miracles and organize us in such a way that creates monolithic societies of diverse 'beliefs' that makes up the perfect 'Pyramid.

 The capstone being the all seeing eye of horus ...





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Replace organized religion in your pyramid with "organized" Jewish Corporate and Banking Elite, and you have something.

I can't do that because all religions are one and the same, just different titles for different purposes and cultures. Divesification works beautifully ...  Y'gotta give them credit where it's due, 'they' sure knew their apples from their oranges.

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Then the question simply becomes, "Is there a higher elite than that, controlling them, or is the Jewish elite at the apex?" Logic dictates that a higher one isn't necessary since jews go as high as we can see. It seems that the "Invisible elite" or "invisible illuminati" may be just a ploy to take blame and focus off of the real "elite".

The real "elite" have never had the focus on them, therefore your logic is flawed. The "jewish elite" are just the 'pawns'. The Apex "has no Religion" that is why it has been so successful in 'directing' it, and by the very religion they created in order to become God and choose .... "the chosen of god".

Then along came Jesus, and he was not fooled, and tried to tell his 'flock' what a terrible machinating tribe they were, because he understood the real nature of man, and told his flock the real nature of mankind, he wanted his flock to know who and what they really were and what power they could weild .... and that is where those who pretended loyalty betrayed his words after his death and scriptures was added to the "torah" ... even today the words he spoke are not fully understood by his followers, except in the literal sense, love your neighbour as yourself, ad infinitum ... If anyone happens to interpret them correctly and reveals them, the messenger is stoned for heresy. 

Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Offline Jan Robertson

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2010, 11:29:23 AM »
A major problem is that you believe the people at the top are "totally  protected, never seen or heard from". If they are, how do you propose to deal with an invisible, hidden enemy? You can't. You have to deal with the power structure that you can see. That's no mistake, that's reality.

No, that's 'your' reality, it certainly isn't mine, or I wouldn't be here at all. I believe I have something to offer but because I don't present the way you and a few other 'like', no-one is prepared to discuss or debate the issue, only 'debate' the way I 'present' or to just trash or insult. Others just can't bring themselves to even view the subject of religion or spirtuality because they consider it irrelevant or 'new agey', or they are settled in their beliefs and want nothing to do with having them tested. With luck/fate on their side they are in the right place at the right time, but I doubt it because what I believe is that we have to work together to have any success to achieve 'freedom'.

So how do 'you' think the visible power structure be dealt with, what has been discussed to death has not worked, not even a working plan for a solution is on offer. The general public obviously haven't a clue, either about what is really happening in our world, or why. Religion certainly hasn't helped, as families are breaking down, drugs, crime and death rise daily, the economy is hurting everyone especially the ones on the bottom of the food chain. the world is in chaos but many do not even recognise that because it hasn't really affected them personall "yet".

I have put my views forward only to be rubbished as many non believers are ... if everyone was to feel as you do, that there is no solutions to be had, then why are we here?

It seems no-one (with one or two exceptions) is curious about our true 'being', and the powers we have but do not use, even though there is nothing to lose by gaining a little knowledge, but a life and a future to gain, all at no cost and only a little personal effort that doesn't require you to leave your home, stage a protest or take violent action.
 
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It's the basis for the religious beliefs of about 54% of the world. NOT  "all aspects of humanity" including Globalism.. Get it right. Your sweeping generalizations are as tedious and annoying as they are false. That 54% is deeply divided between Christianity and Islam, which are both deeply divided within themselves. There is NO consensus on anything EXCEPT that there is a God The Creator.

I did not claimed that "Christianity and Islam" is the basis of "all aspects of humanity" which is what you're implying here, intentionally or not ... even natives, aboriginals, tribal people, have their basis in some form of religion or spirituality.

The majority of that humanity however is Christian or islamic ... and the miniscule proportion are jews which everyone loves to hate ... All those in between are affected by religion, even the non- religious, through family, partners or friends, MSM, schools, wars, literally every aspect of our lives. From birth to the grave we ARE affected, one way or another.


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Intent or afterthought, I asked you a simple question, which you could have easily ignored or blown off. Or simply quickly addressed.

Which is what I did ....

"Yep! Just keeping up with "your" tradition of exposing the jewishness of everything wrong in this world in chaos!
Nothing will ever change the chaos until ALL the judaic tricks and education ploys are finally accepted by bible believers....The bible was and is the ruling elites ace up the sleeve."

Is it any wonder I have to explain everything I say "at length" and still get these ridiculous replies that have to be explained with the same reply different format.

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You followed with a post on "Can we replace organized religion with spirituality?". If you're going to complain that I respond to things YOU  POST, DON'T POST THEM.

Strewth!!! When did I complain about you 'responding'?
 
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You refer to people as uninformed, unenlightened, ignorant, simply because they don't agree with you. You assume it's because they know less than you. That's arrogant and condescending. You can present your beliefs without all that.

I see! It's ok to tell me I'm arrogant, condesending, and don't reply to questions with what you want to hear, but I must be 'respectful' of your very obvious misrepresentations of my beliefs and constantly having to repeat what I have said using different words to say the same thing, and then being accused of making 'conflicting' statements. You nit-pick and call me out for simple things like saying "everyone" when I had previously stated what I meant. You are constantly trying to trap me into responding to things from long ago that you know you can use to ridicule. You want to discuss a particular topic ... then start it!

I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me, or even shown to be wrong, but when I have an answer in reply to the dispute I will post it  ... it's the WAY they disagree, that I find disagreeable, when a replier treats my posts with respect they will receive respect in return. ...Capiche! (I got that one from Joe).

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No one expects or wants you to "accept a religious system". I'm saying that you ARE sometimes disrespectful, and when you call me ignorant or assume I'm less knowledgeable simply because we disagree, then returning the favor would seem to be fair play. There's no ulterior motive in arguing that you're wrong in your understanding of "organized religion", or that you're condescending in saying others are ignorant, uninformed, or "unable to cope" with your posts. I'm not arguing your faith, your ideology, but simply your arguments against "organized religion". Arguing that someone else's faith is ignorant, uninformed, and unenlightened is your schtick.

If I'm disrespectful at times it's in response to deliberate 'baiting', or a really 'dumb' statement concerning my 'opinions' or views ... You're either really, really smart, or you're really, really ignorant ... sorry, uninformed, nope? heck, what word would you use that isn't "disrespectful"?
 
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The Bible is, as you know, a collection of books telling the story of people over millennia, and their God. Does pointing that out somehow discredit it? Of course men wrote it. That's not in dispute. But when it's blamed for all our ills by non-believers, the faithful will respond accordingly. That's to be expected, isn't it? And when someone thinks that your entire premise that it's the root of all our ills, is wrong, response to that is to be expected too, isn't it? I don't care if we argue the topic to hell and back. I'm just saying you should be a little less condescending in your expressed tone, to those you argue with.

No, it's not to be expected! You can disagree with me all you like (in a respectful way), but if I have an explanation to the 'disagreed' topic I will present it, just as I would want you to explain your position, but all too often only hackneyed phrases are used that are merely 'denial' rather than explanaition or logic. 

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You may see yourself as the beneficent wise woman and teacher, that we ignorant folk desperately need, but you won't endear yourself to us by expressing that. . Or as Batman once said, "You can THINK I'm stupid, just don't talk to me like I'm stupid".

Now I.m not allowed to be generous and kind, or a wise teacher? WTF am I supposed to reply to these total BS accusations.? OK, OK!! I'll just THINK you're stupid.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Me..."I have never said "I'm right your wrong" so why say that in this thread? And it's only people who are not confident in their beliefs that get so defensive they become offensive. If you can''t stand the heat get out of the kitchen is my advice."
 
 MrNope "You haven't used those specific words, but that's often your tone. We're all ignorant or uninformed if we disagree with you. That's the mark of "lack of confidence", always trying to prove you're somehow superior."
 
I'm letting this one stand as it is ... it points to your attitude and intent far better than I could

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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It most certainly is.
I  said "I signed up because I got sick of reading all the Church-bashing, and wanted to toss in my 2 cents"
You said "Then you are here for the wrong reasons, this is a forum for truth and peace for all of mankind." and proceed to launch into a rant   "Religion is the enemy". So much for truth and peace.

For the third bloody time.....!!!!!

You left out the part that I responded to in that way ... You said you joined because other members you knew in here thought the way you do....And I answered that in another thread ... Sorry I wasn't as pedandic in my reply as you demand...
Happy now? is that disrespectful enough to for you??

 
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I said This forum is for many things. As the forum itself says, its "An independent forum for Individual Sovereigns ... and those aspiring to be.", although its scope seems much wider, thankfully."
 And you wonder why I keep requoting both you and me. It's because you keep denying and backpeddling.
Or is it simply a matter of your newer posts superceding and overriding your previous ones?

Give it up already, you sound like a broken record. I have neither back peddled or denied anything, nor have I superseded, or overrode ... Are you really this stupid or is it just to 'aggravate and negate this thread.

Get back on topic, this is BS

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And what better way to do it than through "a BELIEF organization"?"
 
 And how do you KNOW so emphatically that it DOES?  Is it because YOU have irrefutable evidence, or because YOU believe? And now you claim that a "BELIEF organization" controls everything including money, and promotes secular liberalism. Who owns Hollywood and the MSM? Who owns the Fed? Who owns global corporations? Who blew up the WTC? Who got us into Iraq and Afghanistan? Who wants us in Iran? Ad Infinitum. There's your "belief organization".

Quite a rant, and still no debate or discussion, not even disagreement... just repeating what everyone (even me) knows ... as for the WAY these things operate you offer nothing and that's the point I have been making all along "Nothing is achieved by parroting the obvious and the KNOWN facts ie, MSM (hollywood is a part of that), the Fed, and global Corporations are all privately owned ....BUT who or what is the PARENT company, where does the funding, set-up come from?

Who owns the banks? .... Jews do! ...Who want to destroy christianity? .... Jews do!.... Who did 9/11, wants us in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan? ... ISRAEL!! ie jews, 

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"The Founding Fathers knew that government can’t control the economy without controlling the people. (And so did the ruling elite)."
 
 http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html
 
 
 Is this part of your argument, or just another of your obligatory pokes at religion? That article is neither new, or undisputed truth. The founders didn't want an official religion, like  was in England and Europe. That's not in dispute. The statement in the article, "They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true." is a blatant lie. Some were Deists, some were Christian.
 
 Jefferson, ....Mason

 George Washington ... Mason

The article says "None of the Founding Fathers were atheists. Most of the Founders were Deists, *(that makes the remainer Christians)

Learn to read and stop nit picking PART paragraphs that do not reflect the correct meaning.

Are you now deliberately misquoting the articles I provide as well as my posts?

http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/watch-unto-prayer/mason.html#fathers

FOUNDING FATHERS

Masonic signers of the declaration of Independence

Ben Franklin

Thomas Jefferson

John Hancock

John Hewes

Will. Hooper

Robt. Treat Paine

George Walton

Will. Whipple

Will. Ellery

Masonic signers of the US Constitution

Gunning Bedford Jr.

John Blair

David Brearley

Jacob Broom

Daniel Carroll

Johnathan Dayton

John Dickenson

Ben. Franklin

George Washington

Nicholas Gilman

Rufus King

Masonic Political Leaders USA
Bill Clinton, Senior Demolay (Masonic youth group)

Newt Gingrich, 33rd Degree Freemason

Bob Dole, 33rd Degree Freemason

Jack Kemp, 33rd Degree Freemason

Storm Thurmond, 33rd Degree Freemason

Colin Powell, 33rd Degree Freemason, U.S. Secretary of State

Jesse Helms, 33rd Degree Freemason

Barry Goldwater, 33rd Degree Freemason

Al Gore, Freemason

Masonic Presidents of the U.S.A.

George Washington,

James Monroe,

Andrew Jackson,

James Polk,

James Buchanan,

Andrew Johnson,

James Garfield,

William McKinley,

Theodore Roosevelt,

William Taft,

Warren Harding,

Franklin D. Roosevelt,

Harry Truman,

Lyndon Johnson,

Gerald Ford,

Ronald Reagan 

George Bush

Masonic Religious Leaders

Billy Graham, World's most popular 'Christian' evangelist is a 33rd Degree Freemason

Norman Vincent Peale, 33rd Degree Freemason, ex Grand Chaplain of the Grand Lodge of New York, Past Grand Prelate of the Knights Templar and Shriner. (now deceased)

Robert Schuller, 33rd Degree Freemason, Pastor of the Crystal Cathedral and host of the popular "Hour of Power" television programme

Oral Roberts, 33rd Degree Freemason, founder of Oral Roberts University

Jesse Jackson, 33rd Degree Prince Hall Freemason

Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Offline Jan Robertson

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2010, 12:36:31 PM »
Another quick point you can turn into a filibuster: The Bible SAYS that Jesus died to absolve us of sin. We are no longer sinners. I've posted on that, ad finitum, in Philosophy and Religion. I'm not quoting scripture in here, because this isn't a religious thread, but it's there, literally. I don't expect you to know that, because you've probably never read it.

I have probably read the bible (cover to cover) more times than you, and I keep it beside me always, I know the story of the crucifixion as well as most others. However the 'church' teaches us that man is born of original sin, and the bible only SAYS that, Jesus didn't, besides, it didn't mean every future sin, or that would mean everyone past present and future would be without sin .... Anyway I am not going to argue this point with you because I don't believe in the sins of the bible, just right and wrong, guided by conscience.
 
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So, to quote one of your ad hominem insults back to you, "Before you make anymore convoluted and stupid comments try learning how to read the written word in a literal sense and not muddy the waters with your own take on anothers"

I shudder to even 'think' of adopting your take on any subject ... my comments, opinions, beliefs, are my own.
I was being deadly serious ... "learn how to read the written word ... and ccomprehend what you read".


Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Offline Jan Robertson

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2010, 02:43:30 PM »
]I have to repeat because your answers are often not answers. They're often evasive wordplay and games.


OMG!!! the pot calling the kettle black ... When have 'you' answered anything correctly?

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Even your wordplay doesn't describe "organized religion". I'm amazed you can't see that.

Why am I not surprised you don't understand? How many times and ways  must I repeat myself?

Organized religions are the religions that have an 'organization' behind them. This is my quote that you actually included in this post:

ALL religions that "control" are 'organized. There is no WHICH religion!  Any religion that guides through books, bibles, and 'laws' intended to control and influence behaviour, thinking, and belief. are "organized". ie they usurp freewill, influence emotions (including 'spiritual' emotions), over-ride conscience, direct 'attitudes', and incite racism. They also divide families, friends and societies. All for the love of a God/Allah/Yahweh or whatever name they have for their 'all mighty' "leader"

this is what you consider wordplay??

Perhaps I was being over-confidant that you understood the word Organization from which the word 'organize' is derived.

Oranization from a thesausus:

Main Entry:  organization 
Part of Speech:  noun 
Definition:  group bound by interest/work/ goal 
Synonyms:  affiliation, aggregation, alliance, association, band, body, business, cartel, circle, clique, club, coalition, combination, combine, company, concern, concord, confederation, consortium, cooperative, corporation, coterie, crew, establishment, federation, fraternity, guild, house, industry, institute, institution, league, lodge, machine, monopoly, order, outfit, party, profession, set, society, sodality, sorority, squad, syndicate, team, trade, troupe, trust, union. 

My thesaurus includes: Design, plan, scheme, system.
 
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I know, I saw it and posted regarding it. How many times did you have to repeat that pyramid again?

 You said: You name the people at the top of religion so we can stop blaming their 'creation.
 
I said: There IS no "top of religion". Ergo, it can't be answered, so I asked you to be more specific. Is that a problem? Apparently so. Since you can't, you expand your sweeping generalization, below. Can you name the people at the "top of religion"?

Neither can this crap be answered so I won't even try. I said, you said is getting crusty.

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Organized to some degree or another, some a lot, some very little. But not organized as a monolithic entity.


How does a monolithic worldwide 'movement' sound to you then? or even a monolithic.'society', they were on the list I gave you too. and society is in the synonyms for 'organization'. Wow! hows that for wordplay...

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In fact, parents, schools and government, and even the MSM fit your description quite well. Most books ever written, fact or fiction, intended to influence the reader to some degree. Same with all media. All law.

Gee you figured that out all by yourself, I'm proud of you. 

 
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Religion plays a part among believers, but to what degree depends on both the religion and the particular believer. Jesus teaches to love and respect one another as oneself. Don't lie, cheat or steal, and always wear clean underwear, that sort of thing.

Go to the top of the class.

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Isn't that spiritualistic?

Spiritualistic??? I'm curious to see your interpretation of spiritual.

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It's man's varied interpretations, not the Bible who is responsible, when beliefs stray from that. Man corrupts religion, religion doesn't corrupt man.

 Did the bible teach you that? Just curious

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But thank you for the link, and your "assumption" that I need information on comparative religion. But I'm not the one who doesn't understand it.

'Fraid you do! Sadly your understanding of religion, comparitive or otherwise comes from religion itself, and that doesn't count... it's understanding through independent reasearch that counts.

understanding of the bible from the bible is like the police, policing the police. Oooops another sweeping statement.

Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Offline DrNope

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2010, 08:13:50 PM »
I will be splitting the posts into parts because to answer you in a way you seem to require in order to follow my 'reasoning' makes them too long ... even for me  ;D

Fair enough.

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I agree it IS secular, teachers, government corporates, MSM, music, and the arts, (hollywood, newscasts and newspapers and all literature come under the MSM umbrella) that TEACH however this list excludes the greatest teacher of all "Religion". WHO are the ones who 'controls' all of them.

Those "at the top" ARE secular and they orchestrate all other controls like a game of chess. this is what I meant about "fatal mistake", yes, you all know the seeable, the knowable, the obvious, but you then "ignore" the other obvious fact, "Who moves the pawns, the bishops, the towers, the knights" in this 'game' of war and strategy? ...

There is always someone (in this case plural the someone) backstage "directing", and then there are the PRODUCERS ... Why do you think "they" are so good at movie making, and all news outlets? NONE of the above are truthful, ALL of the above are "controlling", but they are merely the 'screws', the correctional officers, and as in all prisons ("Earth" is our prison) the warden goes about virtually immune from blame for the treatment of the prisoners. too many people tend to ignore the fact that religion, movies, schools and prisons mimic the real life scenario, and it's the reason why so many are living an illusion. Everyone is so "distracted" by the forest that they fall to look beyond the trees towards the horizon.

My list excluded religion, because the things I listed are directed at, and affect all of us. Religion, in the modern world, basically affects believers, about half of us, although it varies. The degree it affects non-believers depends mainly on how much religion personally offends them.

"Those at the top are secular" is conjecture. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm only saying it's conjecture. The idea that there even IS an invisible "those at the top" is conjecture too. In the chess analogy, I see those visible at the top of your heirarchy, as the players, because we can see their manipulations, and the effects. The more powerful pieces are toward the top and middle of your pyramid, and we ordinary individuals, are the pawns at the bottom.
On a simpler scale, it's like an ant colony, a hive mentality. All the ants behave individually at times, as small groups at times, and as a unified entity at times. Kick in an anthill at one side of the colony, and all ants respond immediately, apparently without communication, often over great relative distances. There's no invisible elite controlling them, it's internal, built into their behavior. The only invisible hand is that of God, or evolution, depending on your perspective, that created that nature. One can see a hive mentality in people all the time, as you've said elsewhere. With people driven to power and ruthlessness, they behave collectively too, in ways that make it seem there's something higher in control of them, but there needn't be. That's not to say there isn't a controlling "elite" human power, but logic would imply that if one isn't necessary, there probably isn't one.

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What confuses freedom fighters and religious 'sects' (using your words) is they do not understand the 'Hierachy' of the pyramid. The Apex (the hidden elite) created a situation where their office bearers, became hungry for 'position' and they began jostling for 'top position' within the hierachy and eventually split into FACTIONS, Today they are England, Russia, America, Islam. NONE of the factions want to destroy the hidden elite because that is their roots, and their security ... their power. So they limit their in-fighting amongst themselves while still forming a protective barrier around the 'capstone'.

The term 'sects' isn't mine, it's what they are. All that you ascribe to "elites" can be attributed to human nature, hunger and lust for power, drive to push to the top, no puppet strings needed. The problem with metaphors or analogies is that often we force our view of reality to fit the metaphor, rather than vice-versa. That's not, again, to say there is no hidden elite, but just that this can be understood more simply without it.

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As for destroying religion they don't want to 'destroy it, they want to change it to a generic brand of ONE religion, and they can't do that until they 'negate' the ones in existence ... Why do you think we have the war on terror (Islam) today, and denouncing popes and pedephile priests while still promoting the holohoax (and the menorah on the white house lawn) they want ... no NEED a generic form of judaism to replace the religions that have become hard to 'justify' in the wake of scandals from within every church. Religion is the reins for 'control' removing them totally would be disasterous for them, for then there would be no sanctuary no haven for them to hide, they would become visible to the world.

To have one universal religion, you'd have to destroy all the others. To have one GLOBAL religion, I'd posit, is impossible. If you see all religions as the same, I can understand why you'd think otherwise. We have all that you mentioned because jews and/or zionists want it that way, to gain and maintain power over goyim. Who else does it benefit? Religion is only one of many, means of control. Some people will never submit to religious beliefs. The Church forced Galileo to recant, but did it force him to believe the sun revolved around the earth?

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Lift the veil and develop the real spirit of mankind the way Jesus tried to teach, spread his word  ... but in the way he truly intended,  a religion without man-made 'controls'.  Reveal the true "Knowledge that the elite have hidden from us since the "garden of Eden" (the original state of our Earth).

I agree with that regarding Jesus. But even as the apostles traveled and taught, followers formed small groups and churches, and started organizing. That's just human nature, as far as I can see. There's been corrupt priesthoods, or corrupt moneylenders coercing rulers, or corrupt warlords, that rule from the top, but again, everything seems to be explainable without a higher invisible hand, except for the freewill and nature God gave us. Corruption exists because of that freewill.

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Yes it is a protocol IV thing, but like most people you read the Protocols like you read the bible ... and that's because they were written by the same entity, there are the same traps and double entendres in both. Try reading it in the same way they "think" especially part 1. then skip down to Protocol 24 and read it carefully, then ponder the signature. Ie.
Signed by the representative of
Zion, of the 33rd Degree

To read it properly you have to read both versions of the Protocols, as the original translation
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.htm has the signature attached, but the Modern English version is easier to read. http://iamthewitness.com/Protocols-in-Modern-English.htm

And how do I read the protocols and the Bible? I will say that I've studied the Bible for around 50 years, and my view has changed considerably over the years. First and foremost, I'm agnostic. It's the science thing, I guess. Second, I do believe in God, but for reasons best expressed by Kant, if you're familiar. Third, I don't think God is necessary for the universe and life as we know it, to exist. It's understandable through science, if you can sift through the chaff (and science is full of it), and find the truth in it. We believe in God because we, most of us, need God. That's in our nature too. That's why we've created thousands of gods throughout history. That's why some cultures turn their ancestors, leaders, and warriors into gods. Does God exist? It can't be proved or disproved, but he does for you, and with a little extra baggage, he does for me.

 I've spent much time at those links over the past few years, and many others like them.
I just see nothing that indicates a higher, hidden elite. The visible elite does much more in the shadows than we realize. Many minor players have far more power than we realize. That's the hidden part. But I think we do know the players, and greatly underestimate them, and they count on that.

This is about as well, and as civilly, as I can explain it in a single post. And I'm getting pretty tired of waisting YOUR time. You can, and will I'm sure, as you say in your reply #32 below, think I'm stupid, and that this post simply reflects more of my stupidity. Yeah, those invisible elite and their monolithic organized religion sure have me fooled, don't they. Or maybe you just can't see the trees for the forest.

Offline jewbacca

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2010, 05:09:08 AM »
speaking of religion here's some comforting holiday cheer for you:
http://tracker.zaerc.com/torrents-details.php?id=15317

Offline DrNope

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2010, 07:37:24 AM »
speaking of religion here's some comforting holiday cheer for you:
http://tracker.zaerc.com/torrents-details.php?id=15317

I figure that if jews hate him that much, there must be something to him. There's a reason for the phrase "May his name and memory be blotted out forever".

Offline DrNope

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2010, 10:05:50 AM »
...pyramid...capstone...eye of horus... yada yada....

Here's a little clearer view of the capstone.



If you move the curtain in the corner of the level below it, you see a little man who everyone knows, working in secrecy, to fool us into thinking there's a higher level than there is, that there's more than there is. It's a distraction, a diversion, a fraud, a myth. It's to take focus off of those who we see, know, and can name, and who are the real lever pullers who can be held accountable if only the people of OZ can be made aware..
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 10:14:23 AM by DrNope »

Offline Jan Robertson

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Re: WTC7, ISS. Moon landing hoax and more....
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2010, 10:13:53 AM »
My list excluded religion, because the things I listed are directed at, and affect all of us. Religion, in the modern world, basically affects believers, about half of us, although it varies. The degree it affects non-believers depends mainly on how much religion personally offends them.

Religion doesn't offend me ... what does affend me is the way believers act towards anyone who dares to criticise the bible, and often quoting from it to prove a point, when in actuality no proof can be provided by something proven to be 'tampered' with, and historically unreliable at best, false at worst.

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"Those at the top are secular" is conjecture. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm only saying it's conjecture. The idea that there even IS an invisible "those at the top" is conjecture too. In the chess analogy, I see those visible at the top of your heirarchy, as the players, because we can see their manipulations, and the effects. The more powerful pieces are toward the top and middle of your pyramid, and we ordinary individuals, are the pawns at the bottom.

Conjecture based on history, research, whistleblowers and actual events (such as the economic worldwide crash, pre-emptive war,etc) does not rule out truth. Logic also plays a part in 'knowledge"

Those at the top can only be secular ... no god, Spiritual or biblical would be so evil as that mob displays.


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On a simpler scale, it's like an ant colony, a hive mentality. All the ants behave individually at times, as small groups at times, and as a unified entity at times. Kick in an anthill at one side of the colony, and all ants respond immediately, apparently without communication, often over great relative distances. There's no invisible elite controlling them, it's internal, built into their behavior.

But they will sacrice themselves to save their 'Queen', as will bees.

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The only invisible hand is that of God, or evolution, depending on your perspective, that created that nature. One can see a hive mentality in people all the time, as you've said elsewhere. With people driven to power and ruthlessness, they behave collectively too, in ways that make it seem there's something higher in control of them, but there needn't be. That's not to say there isn't a controlling "elite" human power, but logic would imply that if one isn't necessary, there probably isn't one.

How does logic imply that a higher order is unnesessary? long before America was colonized or the rothschilds set up international banking there were wealthy families who were able to direct policies and influence laws ... Royalty has never had to disclose their wealth or how they came by it, and even thought most of the worlds Kings and Queens have long been 'unthroned' or assasinated many of their ancestors are still present and still have the family wealth behind them, and their wealth would have grown enormously since then.... and most would certainly go by a different name than original ... Some families go all the way back to ancient Egypt ... Have you any knowledge of the Egyptian symbology in religion and politics?
 
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The term 'sects' isn't mine, it's what they are. All that you ascribe to "elites" can be attributed to human nature, hunger and lust for power, drive to push to the top, no puppet strings needed. The problem with metaphors or analogies is that often we force our view of reality to fit the metaphor, rather than vice-versa. That's not, again, to say there is no elite, but just that this can be understood more simply without it.

 I usually avoid  using 'sect' to denote a religious group because of it's inferences, but since you used it I did too (it was easier). Of course the elite display traits of human nature they are human, not gods (as they claimed long ago). What metaphors and analogies did I use other than 'hive'?

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To have one universal religion, you'd have to destroy all the others. To have one GLOBAL religion, I'd posit, is impossible. If you see all religions as the same, I can understand why you'd think otherwise. We have all that you mentioned because jews and/or zionists want it that way, to gain and maintain power over goyim. Who else does it benefit? Religion is only one of many, means of control. Some people will never submit to religious beliefs. The Church forced Galileo to recant, but did it force him to believe the sun revolved around the earth?

How do you define 'impossible'? Would you have thought 100 years ago, that a small group of people would soon own the worlds wealth and dictate laws and policies to the governments of the world? Religion is like that also, and I have never indicated that all religions are the same, quite the contrary, I said diferent for each culture. I have also said it was their way to control. No-one else benefits, they don't want to 'share' they want it all. And of course there are many means to control, and they own those means as well, I said so at length. You seem to forget that the elite are secular, that they call themselves jews or zionists and impose severe punishment an anyone who speaks out against them, and call it 'ani-semitism'.

As for a global religion this one must have slipped your notice while being distracted by more secular newsworthy events. http://www.bahai.org/faq/facts/bahai_faith
"Founded a century and a half ago, the Bahá’í Faith is today among the fastest-growing of the world’s religions. With more than five million followers, who reside in virtually every nation on earth, it is the second-most widespread faith, surpassing every religion but Christianity in its geographic reach. Bahá’ís reside in more than 100,000 localities around the world, an expansion that reflects their dedication to the ideal of world citizenship."

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I agree with that regarding Jesus. But even as the apostles traveled and taught, followers formed small groups and churches, and started organizing. That's just human nature, as far as I can see. There's been corrupt priesthoods, or corrupt moneylenders coercing rulers, or corrupt warlords, that rule from the top, but again, everything seems to be explainable without a higher invisible hand, except for the freewill and nature God gave us. Corruption exists because of that freewill.

I don't think you fully understand what Jesus really taught but I am not going into that just now .. And his disciples used his charisma and loving messages for their own benefit, they made it their 'living'. "I will make you fishers of men" didn't mean "I will make you into "fishermen" ... a major difference in meaning.

And corruption doesn't exist because of freewill, corruption exists because of the corrupt messages of the bible ... Jesus dying for your sins is like saying Ok you are forgiven, now go forth and sin again and you are still "forgiven".

Freewill using your god given 'conscience' without a biblical influence works the way the Creator meant it to work.
 
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I just see nothing that indicates a higher, hidden elite. The visible elite does much more in the shadows than we realize. Many minor players have far more power than we realize. That's the hidden part. But I think we do know the players, and greatly underestimate them, and they count on that.

All I can say to that is you were either looking in the wrong places or you weren't looking for them at all.


Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.