Author Topic: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ  (Read 4270 times)

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Offline america

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2009, 01:52:27 AM »
Yeah, it goes along the lines of this bleating they passed around to me when I first started this: 

"If you world don't want us just remember we are your doctors and lawyers and we will go but you will be sorry."  I will see if I can find it later today.  It was the ultimate of Jewish guilt trip.

They would post that to me and I would say "Okay Bye.  Leave your gold bricks where you found them."   :D 
I have the entire uncensored version downloaded.
Thanks guys!

Offline change

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2009, 04:06:31 AM »
MYSTICA...no jew wrote that like no jew wrote the Protocols.

The most IMPORTANT single thing to happen in this world is not war with Iran, nor the creation of Greater Israel  but the destruction of Christs message and His Church with all its worldly faults.

Soon Apostate Israel will be cast off the back of the Beast System it created and the 10 Confederate State she created will turn on her. A version of Scientific Rationalism/Sacred Geometry will be the foundation of a new White Bread Religion for the masses while the finer arts of Kabalistic witch craft are practiced by the Elite as they take drugs and manipulate their DNA to attain a form of "poor mans godhood". A pathetic imitation of the real thing.

Just what is it that drives you? What is the problem with the foundation of the Universe and God Himself being "Love"? Christianity is the ONLY Religion that EXPLICITLY states that the measure of your Faith is how much you "Love". What is you problem with that? Christ states..."he who would be greatest among you be the servant". Do you have a problem with that? Jesus said..."love one another as I have loved you". Do you have a problem with that? Jesus says..."let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone". Do you have a problem with that? Jesus says..."Blessed are the peace makers for they shall be called sons of God". Do you have a problem with that?

Saint Paul wrote one of the most beautiful letters EVER written...

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From the First Letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians, chapter 13, verses 1-13:

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

What is it MYSTICA? What do you so hate about "Christianity"?

What gets to you so badly? Why cant you think for yourself? Why do you regurgitate the same old stuff I see spewed out by the same old "new agey" luciferian try hards?

You are conversing with an old die hard jungian MYSTICA...not a Benny Hinn fan who has never traveled outside their State or read a book.

Even at my "new agey" best Christs words were utterly true and welcomed. I hated the Pope but never the Faith. What gives? Why cant you be happy that we have an underlying priniple religion that has Love as it's central tenant and measure?
AMERICA was banned for 7 days by LONEWOLF due to a few jews working for "The Hydra" - PATHETIC.

Offline change

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2009, 04:10:34 AM »
SPOCKY you always turn up to turn it on the Muslims.

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2009, 04:20:26 AM »
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Then a young patriot- idealist arose and went about the land calling for a revival of the faith. He had no thought of setting up a new church. Like all the prophets before him, his only aim was to purify and revitalize the old creed.

Did WRS write this?  :D

it seems not only Islam is writing their own account, the jews are doing it too!

He was this, and He was that, He was here, and He was there...all told by people with the amazing ability to counter the DETAILED accounts we ACTUALLY have to be replaced with great certainty by their own accounts that they write with such certainty and conviction and they were only a couple thousand years to late.

It's like the guy who was always "there". The really annoying one who, well after the event, expends his disappointment at missing out by giving a "better" account.
AMERICA was banned for 7 days by LONEWOLF due to a few jews working for "The Hydra" - PATHETIC.

Offline Jan Robertson

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2009, 11:27:49 AM »
MYSTICA...no jew wrote that like no jew wrote the Protocols.

Sorry Brendan but a jew did write that ... Marcus Eli Ravage "A Real Case Against Jews". published in The Century Magazine. January 1928. Volume 115, Number 3 pages 346-350

He also wrote another article titled "Commissary to the Gentiles", by Marcus Eli Ravage. The Century Magazine, February 1928.
http://one-state.net/toge.html

And one of his books "Five men of Frankfort, the story of the Rothschilds" can still be purchased.
http://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwork/2352786/used/Five%20men%20of%20Frankfort,%20the%20story%20of%20the%20Rothschilds.

Obviously a very proud and very arrogant jew!!!

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The most IMPORTANT single thing to happen in this world is not war with Iran, nor the creation of Greater Israel  but the destruction of Christs message and His Church with all its worldly faults.

I am not about destroying JESUS' messages nor have I said that, or implied it ... christians are doing that themselves by insisting he is the son of a god that most sensible people today cannot accept. What I am against is christians not being able to read the bible in it's true context, without the hocus-pocus. Also to read the bible you have to know the jews agenda, and be able to understand their vernacular and the way the play with your head.

What I want to get across to those who have given up their hearts and their commitment to a religion that was designed to bring about our slavery and world domination is that everything they learned from 'organized' religion is mostly lies. That doesn't mean not having any religion at all, it just means they have to learn the meaning of true spirituality, and develop a real 'connection' to the real God/creator. A religion that relies on you thinking for yourself and a love of ALL creation, one based on conscience and real 'knowledge' about the human psyche. Caring for all Gods creatures and their habitat is also a requirement.

It's really stupid to rant against spirituality because the bible is steeped in mysticism and it's more harmful than true spirituality ever could be. I'm not talking about hocus pocus but a deep and logical way to 'connect' to the universe ... because like it or not we ARE connected, we just have to become aware of it and respect that connection. 

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Soon Apostate Israel will be cast off the back of the Beast System it created and the 10 Confederate State she created will turn on her. A version of Scientific Rationalism/Sacred Geometry will be the foundation of a new White Bread Religion for the masses while the finer arts of Kabalistic witch craft are practiced by the Elite as they take drugs and manipulate their DNA to attain a form of "poor mans godhood". A pathetic imitation of the real thing.

Brendan the zionists have been practicing the finer arts of Kabbalistic mysticism since the year dot. And why do they? Because it works!!! It's the kind of thing warned about in the bible ... Ask yourself WHY!!! They will never offer this to the masses because they don't want the masses finally understanding what really happened to bring them to this stage of chaos. ANYONE can learn how 'spirituality' works (which is what kabbalah really is) it can be taught, and it is NOT witchcraft ... The reason they called it kabbalah (cabbala = cabal) was to keep it 'sacred' and secret. They created fear and loathing of 'the craft' (the cabal) in those who LOVED god.

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Just what is it that drives you? What is the problem with the foundation of the Universe and God Himself being "Love"? Christianity is the ONLY Religion that EXPLICITLY states that the measure of your Faith is how much you "Love". What is you problem with that?

I don't have a problem with love? But the foundation of the universe is not the god of the bible. That god was the god given to you from the jewish bible. Why do you think the jews wanted you to measure your faith in the measure of your love. Do you love to that extent? or do you just love the words more? ... Do you love your neighbours as yourself? do you turn the other cheek? love your enemies? ... I think not! and thats the crux of your problem with me and what I say ... Your confused, and you rationalise that as believing I have the problem, not yourself.

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Christ states..."he who would be greatest among you be the servant". Do you have a problem with that? Jesus said..."love one another as I have loved you". Do you have a problem with that? Jesus says..."let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone". Do you have a problem with that? Jesus says..."Blessed are the peace makers for they shall be called sons of God". Do you have a problem with that?

Read my words I haven't said to deny Jesus' messages, I said LEARN what he really said and understand his messages ... not as they are interpreted by jews

It is you who have the problem with his words because you just can't live up to them, (unless you are one of the sheep being led to the slaughter, and love your wolves in shepherds clothing)

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What is it MYSTICA? What do you so hate about "Christianity"?

I don't hate it, I recognise it for what it really is, it teaches good people to hate themselves so much they are afraid to stand up for themselves and say "NO MORE!!" Sure you can rant and rave about politics, and jews and war and all things government BUT when it comes to exposing the very core of what drives those things, those people, you blanche and go weak at the knees. ... BECAUSE it is YOUR religion behind all the evil we are experiencing ... 'they' don't have an 'organised' religion (they ARE truly godless).

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What gets to you so badly? Why cant you think for yourself? Why do you regurgitate the same old stuff I see spewed out by the same old "new agey" luciferian try hards?

What gets me so badly is the ignorance of 'believers'. And I do think for myself that's what riles people so much, I don't rely on a clever and manipulative book of parables to teach me parrot-like. I have self generated thoughts, and to reply to me they have to quote from the 'book'. I came by my beliefs from personal experience and observation. Tell me YOUR thoughts, and why you re-iterate the ideas and thoughts of others? Please post these "new agey, luciferian try hard's" words that you say I regurgitate, and "why" they are so repugnant to "you". And please make very sure that it is what I have really said and not just your version of what you THINK I said.

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You are conversing with an old die hard jungian MYSTICA...not a Benny Hinn fan who has never traveled outside their State or read a book.

Then you should be better at word association and understand just what it is that I AM saying ... it gets really really 'old' when people put their own interpretation on what they THINK I've said, and put words in my mouth I've not said. I don't want to resort to speaking to them as uneducated idiots by altering the way I 'think'.

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Even at my "new agey" best Christs words were utterly true and welcomed. I hated the Pope but never the Faith. What gives? Why cant you be happy that we have an underlying priniple religion that has Love as it's central tenant and measure?

Well I hate to burst your bubble but I never went through the new agey, hippie stage ... By the time they were in vogue I was a wife and mother of two boys aged 6 and 9, and working hard at building up a business with my then partner in the motor trade. I had explored every religion available to me and none of them gave me any answers only posing more questions.

I did not find a 'principled' religion in any of them, I saw massive corruption in the charities they ran, one I actually worked with as a volunteer, and witnessed a really bad case of cruelty to the elderly at onother, has a leader of one try to procure me for a pedaphile and also stole a bible that had belonged to my grandmother along with a gold locket that had been a gift from my mother ... LOVE? ... on the surface yes, but it's only on the surface, while the underlying tenet is to teach you how not to think for yourself.

I have travelled 'around the block', have been to Britain and much of europe, I've been IN politics and have a library of around 1500 books on almost every subject you can name, and almost all the conspiracy DVDs. I've arranged discussion groups, studied natural medicine, and became a herbologist 18 years ago, I still keep in touch with my tutor and mentor Denis Stewart, and began studying Ayurvedic herbology before I fell foul of cancer and had to forego further studies in order to treat it, (and cured it without the aid of the medical mafia). I've experienced three NDEs as a small child and learned things from a grandfather I never knew, including having a sister I knew nothing about, even her name. She died 11 months before I was born.

So don't try to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs!! I'm no novice to any of the subjects that make up politics, religion, and spirituality. That's the reason I'm not liked here much, because I know my subjects well, I've studied them to the point of exhaustion and the ignorant can't answer me with the same level of logic. They hate being wrong and too insecure to admit it if they are. I have no such qualms, I revel in 'learning' and don't care from whom it comes from, I can, and do admit when I'm wrong, and just go ahead to learn more from my errors.

I'm at peace with who I am and love the personal freedom spirituality provides. I am not lying or even exaggerating when I say my life is better now than it has ever been since discovering and living according to the true meaning of life. My life and my relationships were in tatters before I discovered 'consciousness' and I have also learned what love really is. ... The more you give the more you get.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Offline change

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2009, 03:03:13 PM »
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Sorry Brendan but a jew did write that ... Marcus Eli Ravage "A Real Case Against Jews". published in The Century Magazine. January 1928. Volume 115, Number 3 pages 346-350

He also wrote another article titled "Commissary to the Gentiles", by Marcus Eli Ravage. The Century Magazine, February 1928.
http://one-state.net/toge.html

And one of his books "Five men of Frankfort, the story of the Rothschilds" can still be purchased.
http://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwork/2352786/used/Five%20men%20of%20Frankfort,%20the%20story%20of%20the%20Rothschilds.

Obviously a very proud and very arrogant jew!!!

No, a very crafty one.

He's not criticizing judaism. He's criticizing Christianity. I thought that was obvious?

MYSTICA...the main aim of the judaics is to get ALL the cult members to emmigrate to Palestine. Notice when he wrote the articles and who he wrote them to and notice that Hitler "rose to power" at the same time financed by the same people he represents. One of the reasons the slaughter continues LIVE on the telly in Gaza is so I go and beat up the Australian Rabbi in Menora...they may get their wish.

AMERICA was banned for 7 days by LONEWOLF due to a few jews working for "The Hydra" - PATHETIC.

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2009, 03:16:07 PM »
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I am not about destroying JESUS' messages nor have I said that, or implied it ... christians are doing that themselves by insisting he is the son of a god that most sensible people today cannot accept. What I am against is christians not being able to read the bible in it's true context, without the hocus-pocus. Also to read the bible you have to know the jews agenda, and be able to understand their vernacular and the way the play with your head.

MYSTICA...please...stop.

Now you are getting silly. Many here think you are some sort of "stooge". I do not because I used to be just like you and there are millions just like you who mouth the SAME mantra about Christianity and Christ.

YOU believe Jesus was a man who existed I take it? Then, you seek to NOT "re-interpret" the Gospels etc...but do something far worse...you simply make up conclusions outta thin air based on what? Jesus meant this and Jesus meant that? Blah, blah, blah...anything but what the ACCOUNTS of witnesses say. MYSTICA...how could you possibly be so arrogant to assume a DEFINITE knowledge of this subject when I can GAURANTEE you know nothing about the ORIGINAL Church He created? You have never heard of, nor studied "Orthodoxy" - the original Church and it's teachings, traditions and rituals.

Why dont you study the writings of the people who were there and have an unbroken chain direct to Jesus Himself?
AMERICA was banned for 7 days by LONEWOLF due to a few jews working for "The Hydra" - PATHETIC.

Offline america

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2009, 04:57:21 PM »
I think she is schizoid with a tad of sexual frustration.  How would we solve that for her??  It would be easier to build a peace path in Gaza.  ;)
I have the entire uncensored version downloaded.
Thanks guys!

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2009, 05:35:43 PM »
Well, in fairness, when you begin to question you "question"...everything. Fair enough, i'm all for it. BUT...there has to be some sort of "structure" and "coherency" to your "argument" that makes some sort of "sense". This is my problem with WRS also. He also believes that Jesus really meant "this" and He really meant "that" and He really went "here" and then He went "there" and it is all so plainly obvious and Christians are a bunch of fools, blah, blah, blah...and St Paul was a fraud who was so dastardly he decided to use the new Christian movement for his own "ends" which apparently was to be shipwrecked several times, threatened with death constantly, exposed to dangerous lands while traveling and ultimately, probably beheaded. Yes, it all makes "sense"...not.

People need to ask this basic question - in the Orthodox (Christian) world there are what are known as the "Patristic Texts" which detail the trials and tribulations of the early Church. They are full of accounts of the most brutal and savage treatment of "Christians". Fed to wild animals, beheaded, skinned alive etc...all well documented and in NO WAY controversial in terms of their validity. People need to ask..."did these people wake up one day and decide they were bored and thought they would join a dangerous cult that would gaurantee them misery and trouble?" People need to ask themselves that question. WHY were women, quite sane and well respected women prepared to fore go their new born babies, children and even husbands in a refusal to denounce Christ and His Divinity? All they had to do was cease and desist and they could have gone about their business...but they refused. There are some heart rending accounts available of the trials of the early Christians who gave their blood freely to establish the Church firmly in this world. Why were they prepared to do that?

They could do it because "God" is not about Words on a page. It is an "experience", and when you have "experienced God" and been "deified" by Him you will be prepared to undergo ANYTHING in His name.

At the end of the Myan calander, 12th December 2012, people will understand what Jesus meant when He said He would come..."blazing clouds of Glory" and that it is pointless to go into the desert, or into the hidden rooms to find Him...he said like the lightning shows in the West it is also instantly seen in the East - so will it be when He comes again.

What a tragic yet also exciting time.

It's o.k to say that "Christianity" is a crock but it is laughable when they begin to simply discount the eye witness accounts on one hand while using them just as freely when it suits them to prove "this and that" when it "suits".

AMERICA was banned for 7 days by LONEWOLF due to a few jews working for "The Hydra" - PATHETIC.

Offline Jan Robertson

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2009, 03:28:30 AM »
No, a very crafty one.

He's not criticizing judaism. He's criticizing Christianity. I thought that was obvious?

Of course it's obvious Brendan. I never suggested anything else. Jews don't criticise their own agenda, they think it's perfect and want to impose it on the world.

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MYSTICA...the main aim of the judaics is to get ALL the cult members to emmigrate to Palestine. Notice when he wrote the articles and who he wrote them to and notice that Hitler "rose to power" at the same time financed by the same people he represents. One of the reasons the slaughter continues LIVE on the telly in Gaza is so I go and beat up the Australian Rabbi in Menora...they may get their wish.

Yes I actually emphasised the date for that reason. Perhaps you should read my post about what I think of the Gaza situation. It has always been about creating prophesy.


[/quote]
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 08:13:44 AM by Mystica »
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Offline Jan Robertson

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2009, 09:13:02 AM »
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MYSTICA...please...stop.

Now you are getting silly. Many here think you are some sort of "stooge". I do not because I used to be just like you and there are millions just like you who mouth the SAME mantra about Christianity and Christ.

Brendan please don't use that old manoeuvre! Let others speak for themselves, I know very well what america thinks and dredges up from her filthy mind. But if others think I'm a stooge let them speak for themselves and don't use allegory. I do not mouth 'mantra' ... another ploy using words that do not reflect what has been said, but infers instead a total distortion of meaning.

Of course there are millions who think like me ... they're called awakened or logical thinkers.

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YOU believe Jesus was a man who existed I take it?


Yes, I haven't just made that pretty obvious I have actually said it in plain English.

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Then, you seek to NOT "re-interpret" the Gospels etc...but do something far worse...you simply make up conclusions outta thin air based on what? Jesus meant this and Jesus meant that?


Show where I have made up conclusions? And I'll show you where the 'conclusions' come from. Tell me! have you ever read anything other than scripture? People like John M. Alegro (who helped translate the Dead sea scrolls) and many other knowledgeable men for instance?

Like I have said I have a library of books on the subject .. both for and against ... however it is not books that are my primary source of knowledge, it is personal experience. I have been to many churches and participated in their services and activities as a child, an adolecent and an adult, I have been a member of a church choir, and once considered becoming a 'Sally'. So my life has hardly been devoid of the lessons you are trying to convey to me. I also have a 'complete' KJV bible that I keep at my desk and read it often, and cross reference it with many translations and many other books (to make sure of actual meanings)

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anything but what the ACCOUNTS of witnesses say. MYSTICA...how could you possibly be so arrogant to assume a DEFINITE knowledge of this subject when I can GAURANTEE you know nothing about the ORIGINAL Church He created?


Your witnesses are long dead, and you only have their 'word' that they are passing on 'faithful' renditions of Jesus' messages. Those witnesses also made a living from his 'miraculous works' and his very wise words.

You call me arrogant for holding my views and speaking about them, yet you can GUARANTEE that I know nothing about the original church?

So! you consider that you have guaranteed knowledge of such events, but I haven't? Isn't that arrogance? Oh and btw Jesus did NOT create the original church. Feel free to debate the issue.

When you talk of the original church do you mean the mystery 'caves' religion? The one where the members held 'secret' meeting and used the fish symbol (IXOYE), vesica Pisces as their identification credentials?

http://www.halexandria.org/dward097.htm

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/secrets_solomon_temple.html

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You have never heard of, nor studied "Orthodoxy" - the original Church and it's teachings, traditions and rituals.

Brendan are you now telling me what I know and what I don't know? Do you mean the western and eastern orthodox churches that experienced the great schism in 1054 between Constantinople and Rome, and became the eastern orthdox churches?

I not only have heard of them, but I often attended the Greek orthodox church in Port Pirie when I was engaged to a Greek boy (in 1957), and often stayed with his family each weekend. I still remember a few phrases in greek such as, S' agapo, and Poso kanei?
 
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Why dont you study the writings of the people who were there and have an unbroken chain direct to Jesus Himself?

No-one can know that unequivically because all you have are scriptures written by 'alleged' witnesses about 50-80 AD. There is no evidence that Matthew, Mark, luke and John actually wrote the gospels themselves. Not only that but there is much evidence that both Judaism and christian doctrine are based on Paganism. Why don't you study religious symbology? The information regarding the origins of christianity may 'really' scare you.

INFORMED debate can only be based on a thorough study of both the pro's and con's, which I have done, it's the reason people find it hard to refute, because I understand the 'opposing' argument as well as 'for' the things I post, and some of them resent that fact (but there a number of very informed posters here too). There are some who denigrate my posts by saying I'm a 'know it all' but I don't claim to know it all, (I can't help it if I have studied more, because learning things is my passion, I'm not about to apologize for it), in actual fact the more I learn the more I realise how little I know, or will ever know in this lifetime. People use the epithet 'know it all' to cover up their own lack of knowledge, mostly without any information or facts offered to back up their own arguments.

I've studied long and hard for over 60 years, and spent many thousands of dollars on the information I have at hand. I feel I'm just as entitled to pass on what I have learned and to 'air' my beliefs and views just as much as everyone else does. It isn't my problem if I can back up my beliefs and opinions with logic and facts. It's the opposition's problem.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2009, 03:08:08 PM »
MYSTICA, rather than make this an unintelligible 50 thousand word essay I will simply pick out the most glaring, ridiculous statements to show how arrogant and ridiculous are your statements.

For the record, since the age of 22 I have read and been into HEAVILY Dreamwork, Astrology and Jundian type psychotherapy with all the assorted tit bits from Jospeh Campbell to blah, blah, blah...

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Your witnesses are long dead, and you only have their 'word' that they are passing on 'faithful' renditions of Jesus' messages. Those witnesses also made a living from his 'miraculous works' and his very wise words.

MYSTICA...I want you to think carefully. I want you to take a deep breath. I want you to put aside ANY thoughts of "winning" the argument or "defeating" the opponent and lets have an adult, simple, point by point debate of simple questions and simple answers. I will no longer be a "combative arsehole" on this forum or anywhere else for that matter. So, with these thoughts in mind could I ask you again to consider these words you wrote that make clear the level of knowledge and understanding you have on the subject...

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Your witnesses are long dead, and you only have their 'word' that they are passing on 'faithful' renditions of Jesus' messages. Those witnesses also made a living from his 'miraculous works' and his very wise words.

MYSTICA...you claim to be a "full bottle" on this subject? You may have read alot of books, copied alot of Google searches into forum threads but I think your "understanding" is about zero...

Quote
Your witnesses are long dead, and you only have their 'word' that they are passing on 'faithful' renditions of Jesus' messages. Those witnesses also made a living from his 'miraculous works' and his very wise words.

MYSTICA...please, sincerely...tell me what the Apostles and the early Church members gained from being a "Christian"? Specifically, what was life like for the Church in those days? Simple question. Please dont avoid it or go into a 50,000 word essay. Just tell me what it was like for people in ancient Judea and Galilee etc... when they recognized Jesus as the Messiah?

AMERICA was banned for 7 days by LONEWOLF due to a few jews working for "The Hydra" - PATHETIC.

Offline change

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2009, 03:18:20 PM »
Quote
Brendan are you now telling me what I know and what I don't know? Do you mean the western and eastern orthodox churches that experienced the great schism in 1054 between Constantinople and Rome, and became the eastern orthdox churches?

I not only have heard of them, but I often attended the Greek orthodox church in Port Pirie when I was engaged to a Greek boy (in 1957), and often stayed with his family each weekend. I still remember a few phrases in greek such as, S' agapo, and Poso kanei?

MYSTICA...please refrain from quickly doing a google search to show you are a font of wisdom.

I once sat in a night club next to John Kizon and even shook his hand. This does not make me a Gangster. I do not know where the bodies are and you know zero about the original Church of Christ.
AMERICA was banned for 7 days by LONEWOLF due to a few jews working for "The Hydra" - PATHETIC.

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2009, 12:32:06 AM »
Filthy mind?  Because I speak of Jesus I have a filthy mind? 

Here is your guy, you quote yet another anti-Christ?  Look at the hook, no top lip, brown beady eyes and against Christ.  You can read trash for a hundred years and still only know trash.



to quote you:

Quote
Those witnesses also made a living from his 'miraculous works' and his very wise words.

But in this case rather than the witness being tracked down and killed "for fear of the Jews."  He gets on a best seller list and makes money as well, he can publish his writings in broad daylight, post his hooked nose pic on the web for millions to see. 

See the difference?  And he hasn't performed ONE miracle. 

Wow.

BTW if the witnesses made such money from describing Jesus' work then why did Peter deny HIM?  And why did the Pharisees pay people to say the miracles were lies?  Is that the money you are speaking of that made money?

People who simply "do not believe" do not spend their lives twisting and omitting words to destroy Jesus, they just walk away.

Quote
I've studied long and hard for over 60 years, and spent many thousands of dollars on the information I have at hand. I feel I'm just as entitled to pass on what I have learned and to 'air' my beliefs and views just as much as everyone else does. It isn't my problem if I can back up my beliefs and opinions with logic and facts. It's the opposition's problem.


Who is your "opposition?"  Christ lovers? 

Revelation 22:18-19, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Proverbs 30:5-6, Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.


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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2009, 05:47:33 AM »
Filthy mind?  Because I speak of Jesus I have a filthy mind?

No your mind is a sewer because of the language you use against anyone who 'opposes' your opinions. Insults the way you use them only emphasises your lack of education and your lack of knowledge. Also the way you assess someones character from their looks rather than knowledge and real biographical information and denigrate without even reading the information you google for. 

Quote
Here is your guy, you quote yet another anti-Christ?  Look at the hook, no top lip, brown beady eyes and against Christ.  You can read trash for a hundred years and still only know trash.

That picture was the first thing that comes up by typing in John Allegro's name ... no information just a picture ... do you practice psychometry alone with your "bitchcrafts"? ... Now don't go off foaming at the mouth and getting yourself all uptight ... I don't want to send you into a frenzy of hate (anymore than usual) but you need to learn that I can give better than I get from uneducated wannabees.

Quote
to quote you: Those witnesses also made a living from his 'miraculous works' and his very wise words.

But in this case rather than the witness being tracked down and killed "for fear of the Jews."  He gets on a best seller list and makes money as well, he can publish his writings in broad daylight, post his hooked nose pic on the web for millions to see. 

See the difference?  And he hasn't performed ONE miracle. 

Wow.

Now that's the most unintelligent, uninformed ignorant tripe I have ever come across ... please read the man's real biography before spewing jewish hate.

Quote
BTW if the witnesses made such money from describing Jesus' work then why did Peter deny HIM?  And why did the Pharisees pay people to say the miracles were lies?  Is that the money you are speaking of that made money?

Excuse me!! where did I mention money ... I said they made a "living" ie they received, gifts of food, accomodation, and possibly clothing and wine on their travels spreading "THEIR" gospels. 

Quote
People who simply "do not believe" do not spend their lives twisting and omitting words to destroy Jesus, they just walk away.

Well I break the mold then, because I won't just sit around doing nothing while the likes of you work hard at bringing the world to a grinding halt and destroy any future my grandchildren may have.

Quote
Who is your "opposition?"  Christ lovers?

Just you at the moment, which beggars the question why you're so angry at someone who refutes your version of history when you have stated you don't care what others think??

[/quote]Revelation 22:18-19, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Proverbs 30:5-6, Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.[/b][/quote]

Go and re-read the above and insert 'bible' and 'We' for god and you have the truth of those verses, along with their intentions, such as the plagues which they have already set upon us.

Try adding some sense to your comment ... Now go back to sleep like a good little lamb and sin no more  :-*
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Offline Jan Robertson

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2009, 06:03:46 AM »
From Wiki ... John M Allegro's biography

John Marco Allegro (born 17 February 1923 London - 17 February 1988, (his 65th birthday) was a scholar who challenged orthodox views of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Bible and the history of religion, with books that attracted popular attention and scholarly derision.

After service in the Royal Navy during World War II, Allegro started to train for the Methodist ministry but transferred to a degree in Oriental Studies at the University of Manchester. In 1953 he was invited to become the first British representative on the international team working on the recently discovered Dead Sea Scrolls in Jordan. The following year he was appointed assistant lecturer in Comparative Semitic Philology at Manchester, and held a succession of lectureships there until he resigned in 1970 to become a full-time writer. In 1961 he was made Honorary Adviser on the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Jordanian government.

Allegro's thirteen books include The Dead Sea Scrolls (1956), The Treasure of the Copper Scroll (1960), The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross (1970) and The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth (1979) as well as Discoveries in the Judaean Desert of Jordan vol. V (1968) and articles in academic journals such as the Journal of Biblical Literature, Palestine Exploration Quarterly and Journal of Semitic Studies, and in the popular press.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were written between 200 B.C.E. and 68 C.E., and give insight into the religious life and thought of a Jewish sect based at Qumran by the Dead Sea and usually identified as Essenes. Allegro believed the scrolls could help us understand the common origin of three religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. He hoped they might be able to bring together scholars of each tradition in studying their common heritage without the barriers of religious prejudice.

This would mean making the texts accessible to all. Allegro published the sections of text allotted to him in academic journals as soon as he had prepared them, and his volume (number five) in the official series Discoveries in the Judaean Desert of Jordan was ready for the press by the early 1960s. He continually campaigned for the publication of all scroll texts. However, his colleagues took a different approach, and little else appeared until 1991.

Allegro saw himself as a publicist for the scrolls. His books, talks and broadcasts promoted public interest in the scrolls and their significance. At first, the rest of the team encouraged his efforts, which after all were intended to help fund their research. But they thought he went too far in making assertions about the parallels between Essenism and Christianity which they thought were unsupported by evidence and designed to raise his personal profile. He was accused of stirring up controversy at the expense of scholarship.

The Copper Scroll

The controversy over the Copper Scroll deepened the rift between Allegro and the team. At the request of the authorities, Allegro had arranged for the scroll to be cut open in Manchester over the winter of 1955/56. He supervised the opening and made a preliminary transcription and translation of the contents. He found it to be a list of Temple treasure hidden at various locations around Qumran and Jerusalem, most probably after the sack of Jerusalem in AD 70. Initial excitement turned to poison when the team accused Allegro of leaking information to the Press (which was denied) and later objected to his pre-empting the official translation (in 1962) by publishing his own version first (in 1960). In Allegro's defense, it is suggested the team had already issued a preliminary translation, and Allegro held his book back to try and let the official version take precedence. But he could not in honesty support the official interpretation of the Copper Scroll as a work of fiction, and some later scholars have endorsed his view that the treasure was real.

Christian origins

Allegro believed that Essenism was the matrix of Christianity. He suggested that there were so many correspondences between the scroll texts and the New Testament `” words and phrases, beliefs and practices, Messianic leadership, a teacher who was persecuted and possibly crucified `” that he thought the derivation obvious. This brought him into conflict with the Catholic priests on the editing team, and with most church spokesmen, who maintained the orthodox assumption that the arrival of Jesus was the unique, historical, God-given event described in the Gospels. Allegro also started to look in more depth at the way the New Testament appeared to weave together a mix of folklore, myth, incantation and history.

As a philologist, Allegro analysed the derivations of language. He traced biblical words and phrases back to their roots in Sumerian, and showed how Sumerian phonemes recur in varying but related contexts in many Semitic, classical and other Indo-European languages. Although meanings changed to some extent, Allegro found some basic religious ideas passing on through the genealogy of words. His book The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross relates the development of language on Eurasia to the development of myths, religions and cultic practices in many cultures. Allegro believed he could prove through etymology that the roots of Christianity, as of many other religions, lay in fertility cults; and that cultic practices, such as ingesting hallucinogenic drugs to perceive the mind of god, persisted into Christian times.

The reaction to The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross ruined Allegro's career. The church found his theory so shocking that the book received instant condemnation instead of scholarly appraisal.

His detractors considered his somewhat sensationalist approach deplorable and his arguments somewhere between unconvincing and ludicrous. The book received widespread condemnation and was only taken seriously by a handful of scholars. Prof JND Anderson observed that the book "had been dismissed by ... experts...as not being based on any philological or other evidence that they can regard as scholarly". Sumerian expert Anna Partington casts doubt on the broad brushed dismissals of Allegro's interpretations: "... SMC [The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross] uses a number of hypothetical Sumerian words not attested in texts. These are marked with an asterisk following philological convention. This is akin to proposing there is a word in the English language 'bellbat' because the individual words 'bell' and 'bat' are known to exist separately. Then again words of different languages are gathered together without the type of argument which would be expected in order to demonstrate possible relationship."

However, Allegro's work has been adopted by some alternative authors. Jan Irvin and Andrew Rutajit published the book Astrotheology & Shamanism in 2006, which supported some of Allegro's ideas using iconographic and symbolic evidence that Allegro had overlooked. In May 2006, Michael Hoffman of 'egodeath.com' and Jan Irvin wrote an article for The Journal of Higher Criticism entitled Wasson and Allegro on the Tree of Knowledge as Amanita that suggested that Allegro's work should be evaluated on its merits like that of any other scholar and not dismissed merely because its arguments fall outside the mainstream. It must be noted here however that R. Gordon Wasson never commented on Allegro's theories relating to Christianity, once stating that the author of the Book of Revelation could not have been "bemushroomed" because of the mortifications that he was suffering from.

Allegro went on to write several other books exploring the roots of religion; notably The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth, which seek to relate Christian theology to Gnostic writings, classical mythology and Egyptian sun-worship in the common quest for divine light.

It is suggested that Allegro believed the Dead Sea Scrolls raised issues that concerned everyone. It wasn't just a matter of dusty manuscripts and disputed translations. Rather, the story of the scrolls raised questions about freedom of access to evidence, freedom of speech, and freedom to challenge orthodox religious views. Allegro believed that through understanding the origins of religion people could be freed from its bonds to think for themselves and take responsibility for their own judgments.


Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2009, 06:11:31 AM »


JEW #1



JEW #2


Stop posting that crap on my thread.  You're Christ Hating IS shining through.
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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2009, 06:23:47 AM »
MYSTICA...please refrain from quickly doing a google search to show you are a font of wisdom.

BRENDAN ...Where did I do a google pray tell, would you care to visit my home and check out my library for yourself? Do you do that? google for info I mean? I'm sure many people do that here, even I have to resort to 'quickly' check information for accuracy from time to time ... but it's the first time I've been 'accused' of it. However believe what you like it doesn't alter anything I said.

Quote
I once sat in a night club next to John Kizon and even shook his hand. This does not make me a Gangster. I do not know where the bodies are and you know zero about the original Church of Christ.

Huh? What is that supposed to prove. And if you think I don't know something why not put me to the test? You keep saying I don't know anything but you never offer anything that you do. You make wild claims and I haven't challenged you on whether you 'really' know or just live in a fantacy world, you drop names like an aspiring debudante.

Quote
MYSTICA, rather than make this an unintelligible 50 thousand word essay I will simply pick out the most glaring, ridiculous statements to show how arrogant and ridiculous are your statements.

For the record, since the age of 22 I have read and been into HEAVILY Dreamwork, Astrology and Jundian type psychotherapy with all the assorted tit bits from Jospeh Campbell to blah, blah, blah...

Ohhh! Ok! that means it's in the rules, and I can pick out glaringly ridiculous statements too?

HEAVILY into huh! that's nice, it explains your particular take on the things I write. I'm not into those kinds of things except in a comparitive way ... I leave the mumbo jumbo, hocus pocus stuff to people who are looking for answers from questionable sources, (like the bible). Now if you had said psychedelics, 'Astronomy', and quantum physics I would have ("Snapped to attention"). Dreamwork huh?

Quote
MYSTICA...I want you to think carefully. I want you to take a deep breath. I want you to put aside ANY thoughts of "winning" the argument or "defeating" the opponent

BRENDAN ...Your gettinggg sleeepy, when I count to three .......zzzzz

Quote
lets have an adult, simple, point by point debate of simple questions and simple answers. I will no longer be a "combative arsehole" on this forum or anywhere else for that matter.


It appears other people are the ones interested in "winning", it's all about wanting to be the most liked the most respected person here, but personally I just want to LEARN. You can like me or lump me, ('m comfortable in my own skin), it's surprising how much you learn from 'discussions', and about a person from their replies another reason people 'shy away' from debating me when they have something to hide (like their true persona).

Yeah you were, weren't you? I didn't recognise you in your present persona ... it's a nice 'change'. And sure, I'm all for non-combative debate, free of inferences and 'aspersions'. Are 'you' up to it?

Quote
So, with these thoughts in mind could I ask you again to consider these words you wrote that make clear the level of knowledge and understanding you have on the subject...

They did? Why not just debate the points then, and actually find out what I know and don't know. So far you haven't offered any form of 'debate' or knowledge yourself ... is the 'knowledge' a well kept secret like the elite secret or the masonic 'craft', that you musn't share on pain of death?

Quote
MYSTICA...you claim to be a "full bottle" on this subject? You may have read alot of books, copied alot of Google searches into forum threads but I think your "understanding" is about zero...

BRENDAN ...Where did I say that?? once again inferences seem to be the 'point'. I don't "copy google searches into forum threads" nor direct quotes unless they coincide with my own knowledge or I need the correct spelling of names or places. When I want to convey information from the 'internet' I give the URLs with perhaps a snippet from it that underlines my thoughts concerning it. Doen't everyone consult wiki et al to get information that backs up their own knowledge? Copy paste news Items, blah blah blah.

I have enough knowledge of the written (and spoken) word and the use of the English language to be able to compose my own version of events and to relay my thoughts.

Quote
MYSTICA...please, sincerely...tell me what the Apostles and the early Church members gained from being a "Christian"? Specifically, what was life like for the Church in those days? Simple question. Please dont avoid it or go into a 50,000 word essay. Just tell me what it was like for people in ancient Judea and Galilee etc... when they recognized Jesus as the Messiah?

BRENDAN ... I'm sure there were many, many christians who would have given up their lives for their 'beliefs' in the so-called Messiah, just as today people DO give up their lives for their 'beliefs'. The psychology of "when they recognized Jesus as the Messiah" is a poor attempt to make me feel guilty for my beliefs and 'opinions', not to mention the implication that the Messiah myth was real.
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Offline Jan Robertson

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2009, 06:28:10 AM »


Stop posting that crap on my thread.  You're Christ Hating IS shining through.

Phew!!! you sure read fast LOL

YOUR thread ... uhuh!

Your all consuming hate is showing sweetheart  :-*
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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Re: The Hatred Of Jesus Christ
« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2009, 06:40:30 AM »
You could just provide some of it then a link, but you have the jewish gene of "shove." and "dominate" among with your genetic traits of no top lip, brown beady eyes and hooked nose.

Let me highlight this for you, I am guessing your point is he is a MARTYR and comparing him to the Martyrs of the first centuries who were tortured to death and had to hide out in secret for their teachings rather than post their books on the internet for all to see.  Only a Jew would find the two equally harsh.  This guy is publishing books, the first Christians were being fed to the lions, you think that is equal? 

Don't confuse defending Christ with hatred.   


From Wiki ... John M Allegro's biography

John Marco Allegro (born 17 February 1923 London - 17 February 1988, (his 65th birthday) was a scholar who challenged orthodox views of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Bible and the history of religion, with books that attracted popular attention and scholarly derision.
After service in the Royal Navy during World War II, Allegro started to train for the Methodist ministry but transferred to a degree in Oriental Studies at the University of Manchester. In 1953 he was invited to become the first British representative on the international team working on the recently discovered Dead Sea Scrolls in Jordan. The following year he was appointed assistant lecturer in Comparative Semitic Philology at Manchester, and held a succession of lectureships there until he resigned in 1970 to become a full-time writer. In 1961 he was made Honorary Adviser on the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Jordanian government.

Allegro's thirteen books include The Dead Sea Scrolls (1956), The Treasure of the Copper Scroll (1960), The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross  (1970) and The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth  (1979) as well as Discoveries in the Judaean Desert of Jordan vol. V [/i] (1968) and articles in academic journals such as the Journal of Biblical Literature, Palestine Exploration Quarterly and Journal of Semitic Studies, and in the popular press.
The Dead Sea Scrolls were written between 200 B.C.E. and 68 C.E., and give insight into the religious life and thought of a Jewish sect based at Qumran by the Dead Sea and usually identified as Essenes. Allegro believed the scrolls could help us understand the common origin of three religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. He hoped they might be able to bring together scholars of each tradition in studying their common heritage without the barriers of religious prejudice.

This would mean making the texts accessible to all. Allegro published the sections of text allotted to him in academic journals as soon as he had prepared them, and his volume (number five) in the official series Discoveries in the Judaean Desert of Jordan was ready for the press by the early 1960s. He continually campaigned for the publication of all scroll texts. However, his colleagues took a different approach, and little else appeared until 1991.

Allegro saw himself as a publicist for the scrolls. His books, talks and broadcasts promoted public interest in the scrolls and their significance. At first, the rest of the team encouraged his efforts, which after all were intended to help fund their research. But they thought he went too far in making assertions about the parallels between Essenism and Christianity which they thought were unsupported by evidence and designed to raise his personal profile. He was accused of stirring up controversy at the expense of scholarship.

The Copper Scroll

The controversy over the Copper Scroll deepened the rift between Allegro and the team. At the request of the authorities, Allegro had arranged for the scroll to be cut open in Manchester over the winter of 1955/56. He supervised the opening and made a preliminary transcription and translation of the contents. He found it to be a list of Temple treasure hidden at various locations around Qumran and Jerusalem, most probably after the sack of Jerusalem in AD 70. Initial excitement turned to poison when the team accused Allegro of leaking information to the Press (which was denied) and later objected to his pre-empting the official translation (in 1962) by publishing his own version first (in 1960). In Allegro's defense, it is suggested the team had already issued a preliminary translation, and Allegro held his book back to try and let the official version take precedence. But he could not in honesty support the official interpretation of the Copper Scroll as a work of fiction, and some later scholars have endorsed his view that the treasure was real.

Christian origins

Allegro believed that Essenism was the matrix of Christianity.   Isn't that what you said?  A complete invention and as I said, you read trash there for you are. He suggested that there were so many correspondences between the scroll texts and the New Testament `” words and phrases, beliefs and practices, Messianic leadership, a teacher who was persecuted and possibly crucified `” that he thought the derivation obvious. This brought him into conflict with the Catholic priests on the editing team, and with most church spokesmen, who maintained the orthodox assumption that the arrival of Jesus was the unique, historical, God-given event described in the Gospels. Allegro also started to look in more depth at the way the New Testament appeared to weave together a mix of folklore, myth, incantation and history.

As a philologist, Allegro analysed the derivations of language. He traced biblical words and phrases back to their roots in Sumerian, and showed how Sumerian phonemes recur in varying but related contexts in many Semitic, classical and other Indo-European languages. Although meanings changed to some extent, Allegro found some basic religious ideas passing on through the genealogy of words. His book The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross relates the development of language on Eurasia to the development of myths, religions and cultic practices in many cultures. Allegro believed he could prove through etymology that the roots of Christianity, as of many other religions, lay in fertility cults; and that cultic practices, such as ingesting hallucinogenic drugs to perceive the mind of god, persisted into Christian times.

The reaction to The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross ruined Allegro's career. The church found his theory so shocking that the book received instant condemnation instead of scholarly appraisal.

His detractors considered his somewhat sensationalist approach deplorable and his arguments somewhere between unconvincing and ludicrous. The book received widespread condemnation and was only taken seriously by a handful of scholars. Prof JND Anderson observed that the book "had been dismissed by ... experts...as not being based on any philological or other evidence that they can regard as scholarly". Sumerian expert Anna Partington casts doubt on the broad brushed dismissals of Allegro's interpretations: "... SMC The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross uses a number of hypothetical Sumerian words not attested in texts. These are marked with an asterisk following philological convention. This is akin to proposing there is a word in the English language 'bellbat' because the individual words 'bell' and 'bat' are known to exist separately. Then again words of different languages are gathered together without the type of argument which would be expected in order to demonstrate possible relationship."

However, Allegro's work has been adopted by some alternative authors. Jan Irvin and Andrew Rutajit published the book Astrotheology & Shamanism in 2006, which supported some of Allegro's ideas using iconographic and symbolic evidence that Allegro had overlooked. In May 2006, Michael Hoffman of 'egodeath.com' and Jan Irvin wrote an article for The Journal of Higher Criticism entitled Wasson and Allegro on the Tree of Knowledge as Amanita that suggested that Allegro's work should be evaluated on its merits like that of any other scholar and not dismissed merely because its arguments fall outside the mainstream. It must be noted here however that R. Gordon Wasson never commented on Allegro's theories relating to Christianity, once stating that the author of the Book of Revelation could not have been "bemushroomed" because of the mortifications that he was suffering from.

Allegro went on to write several other books exploring the roots of religion; notably The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth, which seek to relate Christian theology to Gnostic writings, classical mythology and Egyptian sun-worship in the common quest for divine light.

It is suggested that Allegro believed the Dead Sea Scrolls raised issues that concerned everyone. It wasn't just a matter of dusty manuscripts and disputed translations. Rather, the story of the scrolls raised questions about freedom of access to evidence, freedom of speech, and freedom to challenge orthodox religious views. Allegro believed that through understanding the origins of religion people could be freed from its bonds to think for themselves and take responsibility for their own judgments.





I have the entire uncensored version downloaded.
Thanks guys!